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Thought after my 500pt Slaanesh warband was so much fun to play at Dakkacon, I'd try my hand at a larger force, along the idea of a hammer and anvil (or the whip and the claw perhaps...). Take a look and let me know.

*************************************

Sorcerer Lord Lvl4 355pts
-cojoined homonculus
-infernal puppet
-dispel scroll
-MOS

Exalted Hero 215pts
-Boobsnake... I mean Steed of Slaanesh
-Talisman of Regen
-Bloodcurdling Road
-Shield
-MOS


The Whip

13 Marauder Horsemen Full Command + MOS 190pts
(Exalted Hero joins this unit)

5 Knights Full Command + MOS 250pts

2x
5 Chaos Hounds 60pts

The Claw

29 Marauders Full Command + MOS + Great Weapons 175pts
(Sorcerer Lord joins this unit)

20 Chaos Warriors Full Command + MOS + Banner of Rage + Shields 395pts

6 Trolls 270pts

Shrine of Slaanesh 140pts

******************

seems like a solid list, though i would prefer ogres over trolls

WHOA

Awesome concept Stompa, love that you're sticking with Slaanesh In practice the horsemen + exalted unit is always going to be rough to use - compared to pushing a block of warriors forward and charging something ASAP - but you've got some tools to help (a super-anvil with the warriors, slaanesh movement manipulation spells, warshrine to jack them up), and making WoC interesting to play against is something in itself

My larger concern is that it's playing without a BSB, but indeed with MoS the only thing you'll be out of luck on is the break test reroll, and chaos is pretty good at fighting ... My other thoughts are incorporated in the list below, so without further ado:

L: Sorcerer Lord - MoS, level 4, talisman of endurance, infernal puppet = 340

H: Exalted Hero - MoS, sword of swift slaying, charmed shield, ironcurse icon, daemonic mount = 200

C: 20 Warriors - MoS, rapturous standard, full command, shields = 380
C: 13 Horsemen - MoS, full command, flails, light armor = 248
C: 30 Marauders - MoS, standard, musician, great weapons = 172
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 6 Trolls = 270
S: 5 Knights - MoS, musician = 220

R: Warshrine - MoS = 140
--------
2000

Sorcerer Lord -- You can only have the scroll or the puppet, since they're both arcane, and I went with puppet, as in my mind the magic phase is really only about going IF and dealing with the miscast. The puppet makes this worse for your opponent and better for you. Homonculus was cut because I needed points and don't fancy it much (a LD8 no-reroll test afterwards? Blarg to that!), and I decided that he really did need some defense (from his own miscasts, from enemy snipers, from being punched in combat), so picked up the 5+ ward.

Exalted Hero -- First off, the boobsnake is a daemonic mount (the pic in the WoC book calls it one, and anyway a 'steed of slaanesh' is what those demonette chicks ride), but this is totally fine because I think the d.mount is great - M8 swiftstride, fear, 2x S5 attaks, 1x S5 stomp, +1 armor - for the same price as the SoS. True, he can no longer vanguard with his horsemen ... but so be it. Since he's now Monstrous Cav (and gets no LOS!), the charmed shield is all I wanted to invest in to keep him around vs artillery snipes (2+ armor otherwise), preferring to splurge on a rather fluffy ASF sword so he can murder RNF faster. Ironcurse is to keep him and his crew alive vs said artillery (1 thrower shot still cripples them though ...), and you know it is with heavy heart that I ditched his roar. I needed the points, and with his impressive movement abilities I didn't see him getting to yell too often.

Warriors -- Frenzy banner seemed to give too little benefit (+1A to the front rank) for too much loss (no parry for unit, ItP worse than MoS). Rapturous however is ultra-fluffy and makes your anvil unit even harder to shift - plus, with no BSB you may need to weight the odds further. That unit shouldn't be losing combat, but if it does (say, because the enemy deathstar crashes into it ftw) you want to lock down and have your heavy flankers slam in.

Horsemen -- They really ought to have a weapon, and preferably a combat weapon given the number of them and their hero. Flails still seem like the best option, ensuring that the whole unit (including exalted and his boobworm, but not the horsemen ponies) slam in at S5 for at least the first turn. I also gave them light armor, as 5+ save is way better than 6+, and cheaply gotten.

Marauders -- Lumberjack marauders are not really a place for high importance, low defense characters, so I evened out the unit and dropped the champ. These dudes are for dropping your frenzy spell on and wrecking some face until one side is dead, or perhaps deploying 5-wide and steadfasting for a turn while assassinating characters.

Warhounds -- Puppy time, check. Two units is certainly better then one, but I really wanted the level 4 to have some defense so dropped half of them. If this feels too tactically light for you feel free to de-ward the lord and buy your dogs back.

Trolls -- Brutality time, check. Another reason to keep the ward on your level 4 is that (s)he'll probably be your general, so these trolls don't have to try to stick with the boobsnake if they want LD8.

Knights -- Chaos knights kill things, preferably in conjunction with infantry friends, so they don't worry about carrying their own CR with them. Also, I needed points.

Warshrine -- Groovy random time, check. Would have liked to get the favor on one of your characters but had more pressing demands.

So those are my thoughts and prospective changes. Like the list quite a bit, strong variety of units, a rarely seen (but still brutal) magic lore, and immensely themed stuff (particularly with ASF sword and rapturous standard ). Ok I'll admit it: seeing MoS on combat characters gets me all giddy

- Salvage

I love it! If you wanted to go all-out, you could go with ogres with MoS instead of trolls, but I like it as-is. Boss_Salvage's tweaks are great and keep the theme, as usual

Themed lists always make me . I think Boss has some good advice and I like RiTides' idea of the ogre w/ MoS. I am picturing leather masks on them.

On the trolls, I know MGS already has half of that unit and they served him well @ 500 points. Personally, I find trolls - especially chaos ones! - a considerably better buy than ogres. Really it's just the LD issue, which is generally alleviated in 8th with BSB rerolls. (Clearly, the issue still may remain for MGS )

- Salvage

Thanks for the feedback folks.

On the subject of ogres instead of trolls... I'm afraid I just love the river troll models far too much aaaannnnddd they are loved by Mrs S, who's going to be using them in her Orc and Gobbo army, so getting a big unit of them is value for money.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Sorcerer Lord -- You can only have the scroll or the puppet, since they're both arcane, and I went with puppet, as in my mind the magic phase is really only about going IF and dealing with the miscast. The puppet makes this worse for your opponent and better for you. Homonculus was cut because I needed points and don't fancy it much (a LD8 no-reroll test afterwards? Blarg to that!), and I decided that he really did need some defense (from his own miscasts, from enemy snipers, from being punched in combat), so picked up the 5+ ward.

Seems entirely reasonable. Where should he be? In a unit or skulking near one?

Boss Salvage wrote:
Exalted Hero -- First off, the boobsnake is a daemonic mount (the pic in the WoC book calls it one, and anyway a 'steed of slaanesh' is what those demonette chicks ride), but this is totally fine because I think the d.mount is great - M8 swiftstride, fear, 2x S5 attaks, 1x S5 stomp, +1 armor - for the same price as the SoS. True, he can no longer vanguard with his horsemen ... but so be it. Since he's now Monstrous Cav (and gets no LOS!), the charmed shield is all I wanted to invest in to keep him around vs artillery snipes (2+ armor otherwise), preferring to splurge on a rather fluffy ASF sword so he can murder RNF faster. Ironcurse is to keep him and his crew alive vs said artillery (1 thrower shot still cripples them though ...), and you know it is with heavy heart that I ditched his roar. I needed the points, and with his impressive movement abilities I didn't see him getting to yell too often.

Heh, the Roar was there for amusement value. Shame I can't keep him in the marauder horse unit any more though, I thought that would afford him some cover and give them some punch. The SoSS is great and I'd wavered over buying it myself, so gladly added.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Warriors -- Frenzy banner seemed to give too little benefit (+1A to the front rank) for too much loss (no parry for unit, ItP worse than MoS). Rapturous however is ultra-fluffy and makes your anvil unit even harder to shift - plus, with no BSB you may need to weight the odds further. That unit shouldn't be losing combat, but if it does (say, because the enemy deathstar crashes into it ftw) you want to lock down and have your heavy flankers slam in.

Yep, Rapt Standard is nice and themed.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Horsemen -- They really ought to have a weapon, and preferably a combat weapon given the number of them and their hero. Flails still seem like the best option, ensuring that the whole unit (including exalted and his boobworm, but not the horsemen ponies) slam in at S5 for at least the first turn. I also gave them light armor, as 5+ save is way better than 6+, and cheaply gotten.

Yep, I thought this might be your choice. I'd gone with hand weapon and shield as I hate the look of the flails, I'll have to look into some form of alternative to represent them, perhaps the new dark eldar have a better looking chain weapon.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Marauders -- Lumberjack marauders are not really a place for high importance, low defense characters, so I evened out the unit and dropped the champ. These dudes are for dropping your frenzy spell on and wrecking some face until one side is dead, or perhaps deploying 5-wide and steadfasting for a turn while assassinating characters.

So... sounds good although in all cases that you've recommended removing the champion, I mourn the lost attack...

Boss Salvage wrote:
Warhounds -- Puppy time, check. Two units is certainly better then one, but I really wanted the level 4 to have some defense so dropped half of them. If this feels too tactically light for you feel free to de-ward the lord and buy your dogs back.

Dogs are for 'hounding' (lawlllll) the flanks of the enemies and therefore far from the priority that the Sorc being alive is, so works perfectly.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Trolls -- Brutality time, check. Another reason to keep the ward on your level 4 is that (s)he'll probably be your general, so these trolls don't have to try to stick with the boobsnake if they want LD8.

So keep the Sorcerer lurking on one side of the marauders and the trolls near that side.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Knights -- Chaos knights kill things, preferably in conjunction with infantry friends, so they don't worry about carrying their own CR with them. Also, I needed points.

Fair enough, the CR was there for the 'just in case' the knights ended up against a full unit.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Warshrine -- Groovy random time, check. Would have liked to get the favor on one of your characters but had more pressing demands.

As a noob, is there a 'best way' to utilise this thing or just let it trundle along and do it's thing?

Boss Salvage wrote:
So those are my thoughts and prospective changes. Like the list quite a bit, strong variety of units, a rarely seen (but still brutal) magic lore, and immensely themed stuff (particularly with ASF sword and rapturous standard ). Ok I'll admit it: seeing MoS on combat characters gets me all giddy
- Salvage

Slaanesh was always my favourite god of the big four, I'm cautious about the magic, it's concerning to me that psychology has been very reduced in 8th and that several armies and units are immune to it anyway (daemons, undead etc)

So... Could you offer some suggestions for upping it to competition size forces and up to 3k?

The boobsnake can 100% still ride with the horsemen! He can't be targeted by shooting or anything except sniper stuff (which could snipe him whatever he was riding), the only downside is that he gets no LOS! roll. Does that mean he'll get splatted by artillery once in a while? Sure. Charmed shield helps avoid the first one, but eventually it'll happen - but I've been running bonebreaker warlords in my skaven army and have only lost one once to a cannon shot (same deal, no LOS!) Then again my meta has few cannons or people looking to snipe characters with throwers, and I've got the HPA and other stuff to draw fire. If you keep the exalted on boobsnake in your list, where else would you put him? Riding with the knights gets him no LOS! either (though that unit too is brutal as hell), nor the trolls.

On flails looking like crap, I actually agree. My horsemen have spears + shields for a more classic look, and I just deal with the S4. Note that spears + throwing spears costs the same as flails and gives them something to do in the shooting phase (including march + fire because fast cav, and fire in two ranks because 8th ed).

Level 4 was going securely in the warrior bunker with marauders to one side and trolls to other.

Warshrine I still think is a bad unit, despite the fun effect. But other people can chime in on what it's good for. AFAIK it's fighting other things with 0 CR, combo-charging with warriors to help them out, or staying alive vs shooting. Up against anything with CR and it's outta there.

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:The boobsnake can 100% still ride with the horsemen! He can't be targeted by shooting or anything except sniper stuff (which could snipe him whatever he was riding), the only downside is that he gets no LOS! roll. Does that mean he'll get splatted by artillery once in a while? Sure. Charmed shield helps avoid the first one, but eventually it'll happen - but I've been running bonebreaker warlords in my skaven army and have only lost one once to a cannon shot (same deal, no LOS!) Then again my meta has few cannons or people looking to snipe characters with throwers, and I've got the HPA and other stuff to draw fire. If you keep the exalted on boobsnake in your list, where else would you put him? Riding with the knights gets him no LOS! either (though that unit too is brutal as hell), nor the trolls.

Why doesn't he get the look out sir roll? (just took a cursory look over the rules and couldn't see the reason). He's Cav and they are Cav as well. Is it base size?

Boss Salvage wrote:
On flails looking like crap, I actually agree. My horsemen have spears + shields for a more classic look, and I just deal with the S4. Note that spears + throwing spears costs the same as flails and gives them something to do in the shooting phase (including march + fire because fast cav, and fire in two ranks because 8th ed).

Yep, I really like the marauder horsemen, but without those flails, perhaps I'll follow your lead on the spears or perhaps I'll continue searching for a better looking alternative flail...

Boss Salvage wrote:
Level 4 was going securely in the warrior bunker with marauders to one side and trolls to other.

My reasoning in putting the sorc into the marauders was to give the enemy pause between attacking them or the warriors instead of concentrating everything on the warriors. Perhaps that's better done with heroes and lords.

Boss Salvage wrote:
Warshrine I still think is a bad unit, despite the fun effect. But other people can chime in on what it's good for. AFAIK it's fighting other things with 0 CR, combo-charging with warriors to help them out, or staying alive vs shooting. Up against anything with CR and it's outta there.

- Salvage

KK, it'll cruise around in the back and look interesting, I wanted it principally for the modelling opportunity it provides and also to give my warriors more 'zing' to bring them up to khorne/tzeentch levels.

Exalted + demonic mount ('boobsnake' on its standard 50mm base) = Monstrous Cavalry

Exalted + steed of slaanesh (what demonette seekers ride, on cav base) = Cavalry

There is no MC unit in the WoC book, hence no MC character is ever getting a LOS! roll

- Salvage

erm... and you're far more knowledgeable about this than me so I'll defer to your logic... but as I'm reading the WoC book, page 54 says 'juggernauts, daemonic mounts, palanquins and discs are 'cavalry mounts' even though they are not mounted on a 25 x 50 base'....

So, they are cavalry, not monstrous cavalry... The Army book is making them exceptions to any ruling on base size to clearly state they are cavalry, right?

So with that logic, they can get the LOS?

The thing is, the main rulebook defines what unit type everything is, as all the types didn't exist before.

It gives the acronyms on page 154 of the mini rulebook, and the WoC entries on are on page 161.

All of these were split- juggernauts and daemonic mounts are Monstrous Beasts, Discs are War Beasts, and the Palanquin is actually Infantry!

Well that's disappointing to say the least.

RiTides wrote:The thing is, the main rulebook defines what unit type everything is, as all the types didn't exist before.

It gives the acronyms on page 154 of the mini rulebook, and the WoC entries on are on page 161.

All of these were split- juggernauts and daemonic mounts are Monstrous Beasts, Discs are War Beasts, and the Palanquin is actually Infantry!

Also MGS, the WoC FAQ knocks out that sentence that you quoted, and refers us to the BRB, so that's as far as the armybook as exception argument goes

Personally, I love me some Monstrous Cav, all the movement and armor benefits of cav plus you get to stomp people's faces in I have little problem manning up and dealing with artillery, should it want to try for my MC dudes instead of juicier targets ...

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:Exalted Hero -- First off, the boobsnake is a daemonic mount (the pic in the WoC book calls it one, and anyway a 'steed of slaanesh' is what those demonette chicks ride), but this is totally fine because I think the d.mount is great <snip>

Just as an aside, the GW site stats that model as a Chaos Lord / Exalted Lord on a Steed of Slaanesh, so it could really go either way.

I'd have no problem counting it as a steed of slaanesh ... but would request that it be rebased on a cav base somehow, or not counted as a second spot or whatever.

- Salvage

It's true, you can use it for whichever you like I would think- just pop it off and put it on a 25x50mm base if you want it to be cav.

I had the same issues with my sorc lord on steed of slaanesh (mounted on a 50x50 for entirely different reasons), but I have come to terms with the fact she's MC and needs to run with something else. I am planning on having her run along with knights for more face smashing, since I expect the marauder horse are going to smash into flanks, do some wounds, then die in an explosive, shocking military manner. Smashing an EC into a flank with some knights on the other hand should deal enough combat res to be able to handle anything coming back, and even smashing headlong into the front of ranked units shouldn't be impossible to win. (Probably not a good idea though )

As to Lore of Slaanesh, it is remarkably strong, even vs. ItP armies. Last day of Dakkacon I ran it vs. Tomb Kings on a Level 4. The big spell (T check or die) is great and easy to cast, causing Fear or Terror is kind of neat (ItP ignores), forcing a unit to walk somewhere stupid if fun (ItP ignores), Hysterical Frenzy gives Frenzy and a few wounds a turn, which is cool for you and annoying on enemy archers and anything else that doesn't like melee (not sure how it affects warmachines...), Hellshriek is fun (ItP Ignores) and Lash is pretty cool, especially against Dwarves. So yea, you have a chance of getting some less than exciting spells vs ItP, but 3 is fine, and those three are quite nice. Also, there are not a ton of all ItP armies, and the units that are, well, whatcha gonna do?

Taking it to 3k, I would toss in a BSB with some serious Ward saves, another block of warriors, then maybe a level 2 and some more trolls? I dunno. BSB would definitely be the next model though, and warriors are just lots of fun.

My trees were immune to psychology... although that's one of the few things going for WE right now.

Whose tomb kings did you play, Wehrkind? Also, we need to schedule a game soonish . You can bring your Lore of Slaanesh, and I'll just make sure to put MoK on my ogres (trolls are stupid, and thus already ItP).

Don't think bad of me now if I do have MoK, though... I try to fit it in when I can on the ogres, and have been concerned about my precious banners running away and losing me the breakpoint scenario (LD 7... ugh).

Interesting, with BSB, should I give him a magic banner or tool him up with items?

Definitely survival gear (ward and such) and mundane fighty gear (halberd!), maybe some offensive magic items if points permit. There really isn't a magic banner that he can take that you couldn't put on his warrior or knight block instead - getting a magic banner into trolls or marauders, who can't take their own, is a thought but I don't think really worth the vulnerable BSB.

- Salvage

RiTides: One of the old girls', whose name escapes me at the moment. It was sort of a bad match up, as to make 2500 points I threw a lot of MoK and MoS around as well as a level 4 Sorc and Lord, both of whom were just brutal vs. her pretty sub-optimal list. Pretty much all of my units could just mud hole stomp any of hers save the 6 lad Ushabti, and she had deployment issues with piles of cav and infantry. It was still fun, as she was a pleasant sort and there was lots of "Wait, so what does that do?" investigations on both sides of the table so lots was learned.

We definitely do need to throw down again. I am taking the GREs Tuesday, so after that I will have a good bit more free time to throw around, assuming I don't commit seppuku afterwards. Despite theoretically having lots of free time I haven't been painting, but Wulfria is probably one good afternoon away from being done, and a light week should see the Sorchimera or warshrine finished. Nothing like a game deadline to drive the work ethic!

MGS: Ditto on Salvage with the survival gear. Killing BSBs is the new black, especially when there are stupid trolls floating around to hamstring. Warriors can take all the cool banners (Frenzy, Flaming, Razor, Blasted), and Chosen the more expensive ones (Terror banner at least for EotG hyginx) and there isn't much better out there.
Speaking of which, MoS warriors with Frenzy Flag and Halberds is a cheeky way of getting extra attacks on warriors without MoK. Ditto with knights if you want extras of them. Blasted Standard is also pretty cool.

Ok... then this leaves me wondering about putting the BSB into the hammer or anvil units...

If it's fashionable to knobble the BSB, perhaps I'll keep him back, put him in a unit of his own warriors and keep him near the trolls.

What does "knobble" mean?

To answer your question above, I totally agree with Salvage (and most other people would, too): I'd definitely tool him up with "survival gear"- you really want him to be around when the gak hits the fan!

Also, PM'ed you Wehr

Kk, survival gear it is then, I'll have a go at upping this list into a 3k this week.

To knobble or nobble someone or something means to take down, handicap, steal, kidnap or incapacitate it.

eg, orc speak:

Wot appuned ta da waaaghboss den?

Oh, 'e got nobbled by da stunties, dey shot 'im in da 'ead wiv wun ov dem flamin kannonz, he got dead toasty! hur hur hur...

etc etc.

Boss Salvage wrote:I'd have no problem counting it as a steed of slaanesh ... but would request that it be rebased on a cav base somehow, or not counted as a second spot or whatever.

- Salvage

I think I'm missing something here. Both the Chros Lord on Daemonic Mount and the Lord on Boob Snake come with 50mm square bases. Why would it need to be rebased?

I think what Boss is saying is that the steeds of slaanesh for daemonettes to ride are traditionally on cav bases, so if I were to count the boobsnake as one, he'd like to see it on a cav base instead of the 50mm square one.

But... the lord isn't a Daemonette? I mean, they don't even ride boob snakes anymore! There are legs, and no boobs!

(Seriously though, I don't have access to the two army books to compare the stats for the mounts, but are they really the exact same thing?)

I was also under the impression models are supposed to be modeled on the bases they're supplied with, which in both cases for the lord is a 50mm square base.

I guess WoC pg. 54 does neglect to mention Steeds of Slaanesh when it says the mounts "count as cavalry despite not being on 25x50mm bases". Seems odd to leave one mount out, but I guess Slaanesh getting the short end of the stick is at least as per norm.

Well, the book got superceded by the new rulebook, which reclassifies all unit types into the new classes (eg monstrous cav vs cav) and steeds of slaanesh became Cav under that reclassification, thus using Cav bases rather than the 50mm.

Also I would guess that the new rulebook would also have more 'weight' than the stats on the website.

In a friendly game, I'd go with either mount and explain to my opponent and if he/she/it had a problem, I guess I'd stick it on the end of the front row with half sticking out to be ignored.

Oh I agree it should be 25x50mm, I just find it strange it's the only one. I suppose that's because it's Fast Cavalry where the others aren't.