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Ok, so i'm having a bit of a quabble with a friend of mine, and, to be franq, I have no idea who is right. Maybe you can help? My friend plays Dark Eldar, I Eldar. Here goes:

His general style of play is attach Lady Malys & one Archon with a group of Harlequins and puts all of them into his Raider. Lady Malys' Crystal Heart states her and any unit she joins is immune to anything psychic. Does this mean his Shadowseers Veil of Tears is ineffective? In my Army I use a similar tactic and I put my Harlequins /w Shadowseer in my Falcon. If he fired at my Falcon from/with his Raider will he need to take my Veil of Tears test? Obviously he would need to take a Veil of Tears test, as his Raider isn't a unit that is joined by Lady Malys, Lady Malys is mearly attatched to a unit inside the Raider meaning the Crystal Heart Psychic Immunity does not effect the Raider? --Mind f**k--
Apologies if this is hard to understand. If you need me to explain or elaborate please feel free to ask.
Really appreciate the help.
Cheers.

Well, first off, if you're firing at a transport vehicle, you're not firing at the embarked squad. So, there's no need to test for Veil of Tears for anyone.

Grakmar wrote:Well, first off, if you're firing at a transport vehicle, you're not firing at the embarked squad. So, there's no need to test for Veil of Tears for anyone.

Ah, this long lasting argument. I'll have to disagree as any unit within a vehicle has any effects still in play. So if a unit of 4 Harlies & a Shadowseer were in a Falcon, the Veil of tears applies for the Falcon. That's our opinion anyway. This old argument has been tossed around for years though.

Naturionz wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Well, first off, if you're firing at a transport vehicle, you're not firing at the embarked squad. So, there's no need to test for Veil of Tears for anyone.

Ah, this long lasting argument. I'll have to disagree as any unit within a vehicle has any effects still in play. So if a unit of 4 Harlies & a Shadowseer were in a Falcon, the Veil of tears applies for the Falcon. That's our opinion anyway. This old argument has been tossed around for years though.

It's not an argument, it's how Veil of Tears works. There's nothing that indicates a transport vehicle would be effected by this power.

The embarked models are embarked, it is not like the falcon joined the unit. Why is this even an argument? You cannot target the embarked models, so no need to test to shoot the falcon.

Now if the Harlequins are next to the falcon, you are right, the Raider would need to test but the embarked squad would not.

Homer

Veil of tears is an effect for when the Harlequins get shot at; Shooting at the Falcon is not the same as shooting at the Harleys.

If I hit the falcon 4x with my Assault cannon are any of those S 6 shots going to be allocated to the harleys?

No; they were never shot at and therefore Veil does not affect my shooting at the falcon.

There has never been any real debate about this, and your view has no base in the rules.

Back to the original question however; if Lady Malys + unit are in a Raider(or Venom), and Firing at the Harleys directly, Lady Malys and her squad may target them freely. When the transport Vehicle attempts to fire on the harleys; it must test for Veil. This is because the transport and the Squad are 2 different units, Lady Malys does not join the transport when she embarks on it and it is free to target an entirely different unit.

Thanks to everybody for the feedback. I've had a lot of things cleared up.
Thanks!

Multiple Unit Choices, p.92, makes manifestly clear that even dedicated transports are always separate units from the squad that bought them, for all purposes during the game. The definition of Unit on p.3 and the examples on 4 and 5 also make it very clear. There's no debate about whether a power which affects a squad also affects a transport they're riding in. It simply doesn't.

Naturionz wrote:Ok, so i'm having a bit of a quabble with a friend of mine, and, to be franq, I have no idea who is right. Maybe you can help? My friend plays Dark Eldar, I Eldar. Here goes:

His general style of play is attach Lady Malys & one Archon with a group of Harlequins and puts all of them into his Raider. Lady Malys' Crystal Heart states her and any unit she joins is immune to anything psychic. Does this mean his Shadowseers Veil of Tears is ineffective?

This is a really interesting question, though, as it appears that she may indeed prevent your unit of Harlies from benefitting if she attaches to them. The Crystal Heart says she and any unit she joins are completely immune to the effects of any psychic powers, and it doesn't specify "enemy" anywhere in there. Bummer for her; no Shadowseer shooting protection if she wants a Harlie unit bodyguard.

Mannahnin wrote:Multiple Unit Choices, p.92, makes manifestly clear that even dedicated transports are always separate units from the squad that bought them, for all purposes during the game. The definition of Unit on p.3 and the examples on 4 and 5 also make it very clear. There's no debate about whether a power which affects a squad also affects a transport they're riding in. It simply doesn't.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Mannahnin wrote:This is a really interesting question, though, as it appears that she may indeed prevent your unit of Harlies from benefitting if she attaches to them. The Crystal Heart says she and any unit she joins are completely immune to the effects of any psychic powers, and it doesn't specify "enemy" anywhere in there. Bummer for her; no Shadowseer shooting protection if she wants a Harlie unit bodyguard.

It really is a brain picker. I think it works how I said... It clearly states that any unit she joins is also Immune to Psychic abilities, so, I wouldn't have to roll for Veil of Tears because lady Malys negates it? My friends only justification for this not being true is "But it's a friendly unit, meaning it doesn't affect them", but, as you so correctly stated, "it doesn't specify "enemy" anywhere in there...

Yeah. There's nothing in there restricting it only to enemies, or saying she can CHOOSE not to be affected, or anything like that. It's just always on.

Sometimes unit special rules have a downside like that. For example, Stubborn (which Pedro Kantor gives to a SM army which takes him) is often not as good as the Combat Tactics they give up for it, given that SM have ATSKNF.

But, is Lady Malys and her unit actually "affected" by anything? Or is it the enemy who is firing at them who is actually affected?

I believe in option #2.

somerandomdude wrote:But, is Lady Malys and her unit actually "affected" by anything? Or is it the enemy who is firing at them who is actually affected?

I believe in option #2.

Ask yourself who the Psychic Power is targetting. The psychic power is targetting (affecting) the Harlequins. The effects of the psychic power are what are giving the enemy trouble.

If it was Option #2, Veil of Tears would be effectively being "cast" everytime an enemy unit shot. The Harlequins don't benefit from Veil if Lady Malys is with them, imo.

I agree with Puma et al

VoT affects the unit by giving an effect that other users must follow when shooting them.

Veil Of Tears: A Shadowseer is a psyker and always has the veil of tears psychic power. it follows the same rules as warlock power(see pages 20-21(eldar codex))
The Shadowseer uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe. Any enemy unit wishing to target the shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll 2d6x2. This is their spotting distance in inches.
If the models are not within shooting range, they may not fire that turn. The shadowseer and her unit can always be ignored by the enemy for purposes of determining target priority.

i read this as follows: the second paragraph states that it is the enemy unit that is affected by the shadowseers power, therefore, IMO Lady Malys's power would not affect the Veil of Tears power, therefore, Lady Malys and the harlies she is with would still benefit from this ability. at the same time, a Hive Tyrant trying to use leech essence on the Harlies would not succeed since 1) it is a psychic ability and 2) lady malys's abilty makes that unit immune to psychics. However, since it also a shooting attack the Hive Tyrant would be affected by veil of tears and have to roll for spotting distance first, kinda pointless though since he can't affect the unit anyways.

Veil of tears has no target; it simply is.

It never needs to be cast and is up from the moment the harlies hit the table.

It has no range, requires no LOS, and the only way it can be negated is for the very temporary moment when Lady Malys, or Kharne the betrayer shoots at them.

If a unit of Harlies is with lady Malys, they will be protected because the Only models that are ever effected by Veil are those models shooting at them.

Also note that she(and her unit) are mot immune to Psychic powers, they are Immune to the efects of Psychic powers. This means any other Psychic power that may get thought up , and functions in a similar Fashion(if not way) as Veil, then she can gain the ancillary benefit(again so long as the power does not effect her in any way).

An example would be a Psychic power that grants stealth, would not work on her. but a Psychic power that caused, say, an enemy unit firing at her to lower their BS by 1; the Effect of that power never occurs to Malys, only the units that fire at her.

So this was really bothering me today and since I still haven't gotten a final answer I decided to trek my way down to my local Games Workshop, ask the blueshirts, and find out what they think would happen if you were to join Lady Malys to a group of Harlies /w Shadowseer. Since it was only early, there were only two there, they both without a shadow of doubt said that Lady Malys would cancel out the Veil. Since that's where I play and go, that's the opinion i'm gonna stick with. I guess if you come up against such a scenario and you're playing in a home environment just make your own minds up/house rule until an FAQ confirms or denies anything else.

This is interesting I started playing games workshop a few years ago and i have been collecting Dark Eldar recently and passed over lady malys as i think she doesn't have that many benefits in combat and is to weak. An Archon with agoniser would prove more useful in closecombat against most armies I think but now that you have said that I was unsure, so I went to my local store and asked. My friends agree with you but one staff said he thought that malys was only affected by psychic poeers on her, after a chat the staff guy said that a shadowseer affects the minds of the enemy and not malys so that vale works just fine. I am thinking of putting malys in now into my army is there a model for her?

Commisar Hel wrote: I am thinking of putting malys in now into my army is there a model for her?

Not as yet, but she is an Archon according to the codex.

this is obviously one for the Dark Eldar FAQ's, as we have two different opinions going here, but that will obviously be awhile before GW releases it. the best thing i can suggest in the meantime is to sit down with your opponent and let him read both entries, the shadowseer and Lady Malys, and then discuss it with him and see if you can both reach a mutual decision that will not ruin the game with a giant argument.

I would think that if her power specifies it affects the squad she joins, then sorry shadowseer, you became useless. Veil of tears does not (as supposed above) target the people shooting at the Harlequins, it is always "on" targetted on the Harlequins, with the effect that people shooting at it have to roll to see them.

Look at it like "Doom", which targets a unit such that all failed wound rolls get a chance to reroll. The people shooting at it are affected by the power, rerolling their wounds, but they are not the target of the power. They are not able to reroll wounds against any other target, so the effect is not on them, but on their target which causes the effect. The same is true for veil.

The shooters are not the target of the veil power, they are affected by the choice of shooting at the squad affected by the power. They don't have to check for shooting at a non-harlequin unit next to them, because they were never 'targetted' by the veil, the harlequins are the target of the veil. Those affected by it are anyone trying to shoot at them, but the power itself is inherent to the harlequin squad. If it cannot affect a squad with Lady Malys in it (itself) then the solution is to not join a psykic null with an "always on" psykic unit.

just read the dark eldat codex and it says 'uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe' depends if you see that as an effect on the shooter or the harleyquins. how good are the harleyquins in games? but i will stick with what the staff said so i might just buy some and add malys.

Harlequins are good, if you can get them to work right. They have a better WS than Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions with the exception of the Exarchs. They match the Exarchs in HTH but not in shooting. They do get some decent stuff though, they have an invul save and with the Shadowseer they get the Veil to help them get closer to the enemy, and the Death Jester can both move and shoot, unlike Dark Reapers. They lack OOmph though unless you upgrade them with kisses and fusion guns, cause they don't get power weapons. T

he trick with these guys is to get them close to the enemy, shoot the enemy with the Death Jester and the two fusion guns, then assault the crap out of the enemy looking for as many 6's with the Harlequin Kisses as you can get. Placeing a Farseer nearby who can 'Doom' the enemy unit and 'Guide' the Harlies, would be even better. that way you get to reroll missed shots, and wounds, then in the assualt phase, you can reroll all those missed wounds AND reroll all the successful wounds that didn't get 6's. The next bit is to get them out of assault and 3d6" away from the enemy and into cover, then get yourself set up for the next time you can assault.

The problem with Harlies is that they don't get a normal save, just the 5+ invul, so you really need to take advantage of both the Shadowseer's Veil, and area terrain since they have the ability to ignore difficult terrain. If you don't use area terrain and the opponent gets past the Shadowseer's ability to be able to shoot you, your harlies are going to start dropping like flies hit with a can of Raid. There also a tad on the expensive side at 18 pts per model, and then 10 pts more for the Death Jester, 20 pts for the Troupe Master, and 30 pts for the Shadowseer. However, the Shadowseer is worth it as an upgrade, since first you get the Veil of tears, secondly, the harly troupe also gets grenades, but more than that is that the Shadowseer, IS a Seer, so she has the same effect on your Wraithguard and Wraithlord's as a Warlock or Farseer.

Commisar Hel wrote:just read the dark eldat codex and it says 'uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe' depends if you see that as an effect on the shooter or the harleyquins. how good are the harleyquins in games? but i will stick with what the staff said so i might just buy some and add malys.

So what? Ultramarines 'use their powers to fight the enemies of mankind' too. This doesn't mean their powers don't work on humans. What the book says for a fluff description has no bearing on the wording of the actual rules. Using her power to confuse and terrify her foe makes no difference to the matter in question: whether or not her power affects psykers. As to the store staff having a definitive answer, I think that changes from one store to the next and who is on lunch break when you ask the question in most places.

yeenoghu wrote:

Commisar Hel wrote:just read the dark eldat codex and it says 'uses her powers to confuse and terrify her foe' depends if you see that as an effect on the shooter or the harleyquins. how good are the harleyquins in games? but i will stick with what the staff said so i might just buy some and add malys.

So what? Ultramarines 'use their powers to fight the enemies of mankind' too. This doesn't mean their powers don't work on humans. What the book says for a fluff description has no bearing on the wording of the actual rules. Using her power to confuse and terrify her foe makes no difference to the matter in question: whether or not her power affects psykers. As to the store staff having a definitive answer, I think that changes from one store to the next and who is on lunch break when you ask the question in most places.

Well youve just answered it for me. Noone really knows the answer unless you're the creator of the codex and until we get a definate answer in a faq update its down to how people interprate the ruling. So my interpretatoin is, right or wrong that vale can and does work if you put malys in too. now that i have read about the harlequins i might just give them a go!

Go for it man. Do you know about 'chipping' with Harlequins? It's keeping them alive by carefully planning your assault to cripple but not outright wipe out their target. Staying in cc saves them from getting shot up bad, and the goal is to attack a unit big enough to not kill all of it, then finish it off during the assault phase of his turn. It really annoys me when it gets done to me because I can never get a shot at them except for trying to run everyone away from the area they are assaulting, and hope they make it far enough that the harlies follow up plus move, fleet, charge can't get to lock in cc the next turn before I get a shots off. It causes a huge mess in my gunline when the harlequins get close. Best way to kill them is deepstrike, or a scattered pie plate fire at a unit near them and "accidentally" landing on them - but both are risky chancey.

as i stated earlier, to me it reads that Veil would not be disrupted by Malys's ability, but that's just one guys opinion and others disagree. so like i also said we'll need an FAQ and an 'official' wording before we know exactly how it works, until then just work it out with your opponent so you can both have a good game.

Do you know about 'chipping' with Harlequins? It's keeping them alive by carefully planning your assault to cripple but not outright wipe out their target. Staying in cc saves them from getting shot up bad, and the goal is to attack a unit big enough to not kill all of it, then finish it off during the assault phase of his turn

this is a great suggestion, if you have a bunch of harlies i assume, if their stuck in HTH then the enemy has a much better chance of wounding, not necessarily hitting. With WS 5 the harlies should be either on par or better than the enemy their assaulting, but that toughness 3 means it's a heck of alot easier to wound them, and being stuck in HTH means no cover save. so basically the only thing that makes sense to me in using this tactic is to use it against low armor troops, IG squads, gaunts, SM scouts, guardians, etc, etc., cause anything else is pretty much gonna chew them up and spit them out, and if your going against a low armour squad it's gonna be real hard not to wipe them out with the harlies.

I ran a group of 10 unmodified harlies, w/ the exception of Troupe Master, Death Jester, and Shadowseer into a group of Necron warriors, and every turn i'd lose a couple of harlies, while he stood his guys back up. in the end i lost every single harlie, and he only lost 2 guys, since then i don't run harlies without kisses and fusion pistols.

edited for a typo

Its all in the init, the charge and number of attacks, and the kisses. I saw a squad of 5 harlequins run through a gang of around 10 blood claws doing this (just the first for-instance that came to mind). The issue is that enough rending attacks kill off even power armor, kill it first, and leave only a couple of guys left to hit back, some miss, dont necessarily wound, and after all things considered, maybe a harlequin or two dies in their return hits.

On his turn. he cannot shoot them, and they hit first again in assault, killing off the rest, getting a followup. Then it's your turn again to get them away back out into the range where the veil can protect them from being seen.

What you are doing is using the initiative and the charge to get 2 turns worth of combat out of them, and if you gauge the target well, only get 1 turn worth of getting hit back, and save yourself from being shot at for a turn, while losing a couple of guys.

I know you are playing DE, not Eldar, but it works even better with 'doom' on their target too, as rerolled wound dice mean more rending hits.

Thanks guys for all the suggestions! Had my first game with harlequins on saturday and boy do they rock! it was against space wolves and even though i lost - open table top is never a good thing for dark eldar but the harlequins were my unit of the match. i made a few mistakes like keeping the harlequins out of a transport but when they got into close combat they really kicked some i never realised how good furios charge was, am i right in saying that harlequin kiss is a rending weapon and that a roll of 6 is like a power wepon? my opponent said 'no' but we did dice of fate and it was in my favour. thanks again guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to OP for going off-topic. I am still saying Malys and Vale works.

Commisar Hel wrote: am i right in saying that harlequin kiss is a rending weapon and that a roll of 6 is like a power wepon? my opponent said 'no' but we did dice of fate and it was in my favour. thanks again guys.

You're correct. On a Wound Roll of 6 it is Rending. I think you're opponent must have been in a sticky situation and tried to blag his way out of it. The way I see it if you think you're right, stick to your thoughts, and don't let anyone else sway that opinion unless it states otherwise in a Codex, Rulebook or FAQ. 40k is a game that, unfortunately, can get a little argumentative.

Commisar Hel wrote:Thanks guys for all the suggestions! Had my first game with harlequins on saturday and boy do they rock! it was against space wolves and even though i lost - open table top is never a good thing for dark eldar but the harlequins were my unit of the match. i made a few mistakes like keeping the harlequins out of a transport but when they got into close combat they really kicked some i never realised how good furios charge was, am i right in saying that harlequin kiss is a rending weapon and that a roll of 6 is like a power wepon? my opponent said 'no' but we did dice of fate and it was in my favour. thanks again guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry to OP for going off-topic. I am still saying Malys and Vale works.

the rules for the kiss are specific, the model gains the rending rule. the rending rule in the BBB is also clear.