Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My apologies in advance for even having to ask this, but here goes:

I have a friend who knows his arm measurement from elbow to wrist is exactly 12". He sometimes uses this as a gauge to give him a rough idea of how close he is to enemy units (note: not placing his arm on the table, but glancing between the two for comparison). I think this is cheap, but so long as he doesn't place his arm on the table or DIRECTLY measure the distance between units I am willing to let it slide.

I have another friend who will place a tape measure on the edge of the table open to 12" and use that for a direct compareson. He argues that while it may be against the spirit of the law, it isn't prohibited by the RAW.

Other then just not playing games w/ this guy, do you all have any suggestions for dealing with people like this?

Tiernoc wrote:My apologies in advance for even having to ask this, but here goes:

I have a friend who knows his arm measurement from elbow to wrist is exactly 12". He sometimes uses this as a gauge to give him a rough idea of how close he is to enemy units (note: not placing his arm on the table, but glancing between the two for comparison). I think this is cheap, but so long as he doesn't place his arm on the table or DIRECTLY measure the distance between units I am willing to let it slide.

I have another friend who will place a tape measure on the edge of the table open to 12" and use that for a direct compareson. He argues that while it may be against the spirit of the law, it isn't prohibited by the RAW.

Other then just not playing games w/ this guy, do you all have any suggestions for dealing with people like this?

As for comparing to his arm, unless he has a tattoo of a ruler on it, I think that is unavoidable. If he isn't placing it on the table, it is close to impossible to keep people from comparing known distances for guesstimating. Ever play on a realm of battle board? I know it is 24" x 24". I can use those lines to guesstimate a whole lot based upon half and quarter distances. Is that cheating? Unfair? At some point, some people are really good at judging distances.

As for extending a ruler and lying it on the table, that is horsecrap. RAW says no premeasuring unless explicitly allowed to. Lying a ruler on the table and then measuring with it is measuring. Every time he tries to set it down, quickly pick it up and remove it from the gaming table... If he is playing the RAW card then he has crossed the line of being civil and you have every right to be uncivil back.

At some point, you either confront them or not play them.

Play with them and don't care that they do it. Or do exactly the same thing they do so that it is a level playing field.

Either way it's not worth getting stressed about winning a game of toy soldiers.

My own forearm to middle fingertip is 18".
I also worked in a tile factory for several years (6" and 12" tiles).

Just from constantly seeing them, I can easily gauge measurements to the nearest 2". You can also do this with time on a GW RoB table.

I don't see a problem.

Estimating distances is a skill you learn. It's not an 'unfair' advantage. It's an advantage that ANYONE (well, maybe not blind people) can learn.

I think being able to visually gauge it is completely fine but back at my old FLGS we had a guy that would measure using the distance from his thumb to his index finger. I didn't care back then cause I was young but now I would call it pre-measuring especially if it was a tournament.

chromedog wrote:My own forearm to middle fingertip is 18".
I also worked in a tile factory for several years (6" and 12" tiles).

Just from constantly seeing them, I can easily gauge measurements to the nearest 2". You can also do this with time on a GW RoB table.

I don't see a problem.

Estimating distances is a skill you learn. It's not an 'unfair' advantage. It's an advantage that ANYONE (well, maybe not blind people) can learn.

Again, to be clear I don't have a problem with gauging distances / eyeballing it ... but opening a measuring tape and puting it next to the table is pre-measuring in my opinion.

Yes using a measuring tape to measure anything, even an open space not on the board (such as by opening it to the desired length) is prohibited by the rules. You are only allowed to measure something when the rules tell you to.

It doesn't even matter what your measurement device is: arms, fingers, tape, or whatever. Its not allowed. Its hard to enforce some of this stuff, you can't tell your friend to leave their arm at home when they know how long it is, but certainly if someone is pulling their measuring tape out to 12" you can tell them to put it away until the rules allow them to measure something.

I have the same problem, except that he measures his arm each time AND puts it on the table. (Rules he disagrees with, like no measuring unless you have a reason, he likes to ignore) If I or anyone else ever tried to call him on it, he would whine and moan and ignore us.

I mean really. Every time I play him he becomes more and more like TFG. If I can find it in the rules, I will show him, though he may still argue against it, and if someone refuses to believe blue is blue, what can you do?

As for your problem, I agree with the above posts. Sorry to half-hijack your thread.

wow thats depressing as helll hahaha

im going to measure my arm right now!!

RedArmy, you should convince everyone at your gaming group to stop playing that guy, he sounds like a serious douche bag.

Chop off his arm, if he complains, tell him there is nothing in the rull book prohibiting you from chopping off his arm.

P.S. Don't forget the teeth, bring me the teeth!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Chop off his arm, if he complains, tell him there is nothing in the rull book prohibiting you from chopping off his arm.

And chop off as much as you want. Remember, no premeasuring!

There is a difference between gamesmanship and cheating. Athletes do this all the time and we applaud them for it. Its a fine line, but unless he's laying his arm on the table then fine.

I have some other really neat examples of people using things like this measure distances.

1. deployment zones. Use dice to mark your deployment zone. 12 inches from the back of the table. then you know that it is a quarter of the table.

2. leaving your dice boxes, or turn counters in strategically located spots on the table edge, ie.... every 12 inches. You have to really be sneaky about this one. It probably crosses the line as well.

3. Over measuring. You have 2 units that are close to each other. You measure "12" for your bolter, but you pull the tape measure out 24 to get a free "over measure" for the vindicator right next to your tac squad.

Personally, I just lay my Johnson on the table, and mark out 12 inches.

I'd call on you for cheating for 1+2.

3. Is perfectly legal, I'll often measure shooting for units which I know to be out of range.

For number 1, you could easily use an objective marker to achieve the same thing. this would be perfectly legal.

We all know that pre-measuring is coming in 6th edition.

gannam wrote:
Personally, I just lay my Johnson on the table, and mark out 12 inches.

By tripling the distance?

gannam wrote:3. Over measuring. You have 2 units that are close to each other. You measure "12" for your bolter, but you pull the tape measure out 24 to get a free "over measure" for the vindicator right next to your tac squad.

This is cheating



You measure to the model, not '24" and find what is in range'

You cannot, by the rules, get a "Free over measure"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gannam wrote:
We all know that pre-measuring is coming in 6th edition.

It existed (to an extent) in 3rd edition, and many units had special rules/wargear that allowed them to literally "pre-measure". So while that may "return" in 6th edition, its nothing new.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

gannam wrote:3. Over measuring. You have 2 units that are close to each other. You measure "12" for your bolter, but you pull the tape measure out 24 to get a free "over measure" for the vindicator right next to your tac squad.

This is cheating



You measure to the model, not '24" and find what is in range'

You cannot, by the rules, get a "Free over measure"

I agree for the reason Dar stated.
That is not how I play. I measure to the unit I targeted, not the maximum range of the weapon.

I am by no means advocating the use of these tactics, I am simply pointing them out. They are certainly out there.

gannam wrote:I am by no means advocating the use of these tactics, I am simply pointing them out. They are certainly out there.

Execpt that one of them (namely #3) is blatent cheating based on the rules I provided.

I don't understand the problem with No. 1. My regular opponents and I will regularly set out deployment in this way, removing the dice at the end of deployment. The same could be achieved by placing a squad along the edges of your deployment and then deploying them elsewhere so why give yourself the hassle of measuring for each model?

I know a guy who would always have his codex in hand to check rules...then I realized he was using it as a measure...he would put down the bound side when he leaned over to look at angles, and I discovered he was premeasuring.

Yeah, there are unavoidable things such as:

We play on the GW gaming mat on the floor, this thing still has a crease in it down the middle, which is pretty much a 24" marker from the table edge. But since it gives both sides the same advantage I guess it evens out!

Yeah, the premeasuring is in extremely poor taste, and unfortunately it is a "if you don't like it, ask him to stop, if he refuses, stop playing with him"

For the dice being used to measure out deployment zones, I disagree that this is an issue. Nearly everyone in our FLGS both in tournaments and recreational games does this. It speeds up deployment so you can actually play the game.

let me clarify here. Its using dice as deployment markers and then accidentally leaving one or 2 of them on the table during the game to use as measurement devices.

Oh good call, yeah that would a shady situation :-P

That's why after deployment you scoop up all the dice, yours and your opponents, and put them off to the side!

What you should do is just bring along a premeasured 12" long rod of balsa wood with the words 'My Arm' written on the side. Then you can do exactly what he is doing, just cutting out the middle man. In fact, make a mark with a pen 6" on the stick and mark it as a 'freckle'.

Thanks to this thread, I now know that the hypotenuse between my thumb and index finger is 6.2" from nail to nail. Thanks for that stunning piece of information, hopefully no more failed assaults for me!

You could just use a laser rangefinder when checking LoS.
If anyone questions it, tell them you are Borg!

kmdl1066 wrote:Either way it's not worth getting stressed about winning a game of toy soldiers.

I hate people who try to pull this attitude in an argument.
If it's such a pathetic hobby as you're trying to imply, why do you post of a forum about it?
Otherwise - I agree - it IS a game, and games are meant to be fun. People who cheat spoil my fun.

As for the guy's arm... well as long as he's not laying it over the unit to use as a measuring device, it's just a deteched frame of reference - and fairly standard practice to try and compare things in your mind as part of making an estimate.
I agree - I don't like your other mate's use of an actual ruler/tape measure and i wouldn't allow it

Any of the other sneaky methods are bad sportsmanship and I would have a serious talk with anyone who tried spoiling the fun by trying to cheat.

In my gaming group we have an informal system where we usually declare our intentions as we're making our turn. We're perfectly fine with proposing an alternate target in case where the first priority was destroyed (or rendered much less threat) by previous shooting, but it helps avoid the tactic of using one squad to "get a free measure" for another nearby squad.
It also allows us to be somewhat generous if you get halfway through the assault phase and your opponent says "Oh no I forgot to shoot with that squad!"... we'd normally allow it if he'd already declared his intentions