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So, I wanted to see if I could run a wolf priest on a bike with a TWC unit. He fits the criteria since he is an IC. A couple of questions though.

A bike can move 12 and assault, so can I move the wolf priest 12, have the TWC move 6 and then run, and then as long as I am within coherency, the wolf priest should still be attached to the unit and therefore grant abilities if we are within 6 for the charge.

I have a feeling that the answer is no, but I was wondering if anyone else had tried this.

From what I understand, each unit that is together at the start of the turn moves at the pace of its slowest unit, thereby the bike could only "move" 6 inches that turn, and cannot run.

gannam wrote:From what I understand, each unit that is together at the start of the turn moves at the pace of its slowest unit, thereby the bike could only "move" 6 inches that turn, and cannot run.

This is correct. Also they would only be able to assault 6"

An IC can only join a unit of TWC when he himself is on a Thunderwolf. Wolf Priest can for certain ride the bike next to them but he cannot "join them" for the purposes of conferring Preferred Enemy. Sorry Dude, good thinking just not able to do it. I do not have my book in front of me but look Thunder Wolf mounts or cavalry and it will say somthing like "only models on THunderwolves can join a unit of Thunderwolf calvary.

totally and utterly incorrect, I'm afraid

A TWM *lord* may only join TWC, however there is no rule in TWC entry that prevents you from joining any IC to them.

I think this is kosher, it would just neuter your TWC's mobility (which isn't worth it just for the preferred enemy on an already devastatingly efficient unit)

Even if you could join them the whole unit including the priest moves at the slowest rate and since bikes cannot run that's 6" per turn.

Well I am not gonna highjack the guys post. Here is my reasoning and I'll let you all hammer it out.

Page 62 Thunderwolf Mount

Only the bravest and most skilled have what it takes to break in one of the the legendary Thunderwolves. One who has done rides to war up a growling, hissing mountain of muscle, hatred and cybernetics eager to slaughter all before it. A character with a Thunderwolf Mount has the unit type of cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness and +1 Attack to his profile, and has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon. However he may only join ThunderWolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units- anything else is asking for trouble.

This is the only way an IC can join a unit of Thunderwolves. Not in the history of this codex coming out has anyone joined an IC without a Thunderwolf to a unit of Thunderwolves. Not in the who knows how many battel reports I have read in multiple forums has this been done. Read every battle report on dakka that has a T. Wolf and I will guarantee you that this has never been done. If they did they were wrong. No tournament has allowed it (to my knowledge) If this were possible then you would see wolf priests gallore attaching themselves to T. Wolves for his Oath of War ability. Sorry buddy, can't be done. There are three models that buy the mounts, Wolf Lords, Wolf Guard Battle Leaders and Iron Priests. Four if you count Canis.

Well, the portion you have bolded says that a unit that is on a thunderwolf can only join units on other thunderwolves, or wolves. It says nothing about a unit not being a wolf not being able to join TWC.

I think that reasons mentioned above are fine, but this last one is not right.

The fact is its legal, just not smart

Ah... good old rules lawyers doing beardy crap since wargaming was invented.
It's because of those sort of people that Wolf Guard terminators must now number 10 before a 2nd heavy weapon can be taken (even though the original box of 5 came with Heavy flamer AND Assault cannon models).
Because (RAW) it was possible to take a squad of 5 Termies EACH with an Assault Cannon AND Cyclone Missile Launcher AND fire them both every turn with an effective BS 6
You do stuff like that and then they nerf the codex next release - and then you will have Aldarionn telling you you cant take wolf guard termies at all and you have to take long fang MLs

Yes - They forgot to say ICs without a Thunderwolf mount can't join TWC units, but the reciprocal is true and you know that's how they intended it - hence the "anything else is asking for trouble" at the end of the actual rule (as opposed to writing that in the fluff section prior to the actual ruling)

Just because you can argue a dodgey loophole exists, doesn't mean you should abuse it

karlosovic wrote:. . .

Was all that an attempt to say "I never noticed it read that way before"?

karlosovic wrote:Ah... good old rules lawyers doing beardy crap since wargaming was invented.
It's because of those sort of people that Wolf Guard terminators must now number 10 before a 2nd heavy weapon can be taken (even though the original box of 5 came with Heavy flamer AND Assault cannon models).
Because (RAW) it was possible to take a squad of 5 Termies EACH with an Assault Cannon AND Cyclone Missile Launcher AND fire them both every turn with an effective BS 6

Yes - They forgot to say ICs without a Thunderwolf mount can't join TWC units, but the reciprocal is true and you know that's how they intended it - hence the "anything else is asking for trouble" at the end of the actual rule (as opposed to writing that in the fluff section prior to the actual ruling)

Just because you can argue a dodgey loophole exists, doesn't mean you should abuse it

Reading Comprehension is not a "dodgey loophole". The rule you think exists just doesn't, at all.

Bikeninja, the section you quoted says that an IC on the Thunderwolf can only join other Thunderwolf units. It doesn't say that Thunderwolf units can only be joined by ICs on Thunderwolves.

karlosovic wrote:Ah... good old rules lawyers doing beardy crap since wargaming was invented.

Throwing derogatory stereotypes around doesn't add anything constructive to the discussion. The fact that someone has a different view of the rules to your own doesn't make them a rules lawyer. Let's keep it civil, hmm?

It's because of those sort of people that Wolf Guard terminators must now number 10 before a 2nd heavy weapon can be taken (even though the original box of 5 came with Heavy flamer AND Assault cannon models).
Because (RAW) it was possible to take a squad of 5 Termies EACH with an Assault Cannon AND Cyclone Missile Launcher AND fire them both every turn with an effective BS 6

That hasn't been legal since 2nd edition, which was a totally different game. And removing it was nothing to do with people being rules lawyers...

Yes - They forgot to say ICs without a Thunderwolf mount can't join TWC units, but the reciprocal is true and you know that's how they intended it - hence the "anything else is asking for trouble" at the end of the actual rule (as opposed to writing that in the fluff section prior to the actual ruling)

The thing is, we have no way of knowing what they intended. You can guess... and the part you mention is certainly a hint. But at the end of the day, we're left with what the rules actually say. And there is nothing in those rules that would prevent an unmounted IC from joining a TWC unit under the normal rules for ICs joining units.

What you see as a loophole, others are going to see as just the way the rules are. So, again, let's not label people just because they have a different point of view to your own. We're talking about toy soldiers here.

insaniak wrote:The fact that someone has a different view of the rules to your own doesn't make them a rules lawyer. Let's keep it civil, hmm?

Sorry, natural reaction after seeing too many people try to pull sometihng ill-spirited - I probably over-reacted

however,

And removing it was nothing to do with people being rules lawyers...

It was abuses of exactly this sort of thing that led to much more restrictive army lists now

The thing is, we have no way of knowing what they intended. You can guess... and the part you mention is certainly a hint. But at the end of the day, we're left with what the rules actually say. And there is nothing in those rules that would prevent an unmounted IC from joining a TWC unit under the normal rules for ICs joining units.

I still believe the listed text makes it obvious what they intended but you're right - RAW there's nothing to prevent an unmounted IC joining TWC. I don't like it and wouldn't do it (for more than just tactical reasons) but I guess I can't stop others doing it. Luckily I don't play against any other Space Wolf players

What you see as a loophole, others are going to see as just the way the rules are

Fair enough

Were(sic) talking about toy soldiers here.

Up until here you'd made a perfectly reasonable and mature post. Aren't you a mod here on this discussion of "toy soldiers"?

karlosovic wrote:It was abuses of exactly this sort of thing that led to much more restrictive army lists now

No, it was GW deciding to tone certain units down that led to more restrictive army lists.

If GW put a unit in a codex that has access to multiple heavy weapons for each model in the unit, then taking multiple heavy weapons for each model in the unit is not 'abusive'... Yes, it wound up being more powerful than GW probably realised when they write the option in there, but that's not the fault of the player who chooses to use it.

Up until here you'd made a perfectly reasonable and mature post. Aren't you a mod here on this discussion of "toy soldiers"?

I'm the mod who's telling you to stop posting snarky comments in this discussion about toy soldiers, yes. The point was that there is no need to go flinging names around just because someone has a different view on how to play the game to your own. If you want to continue to participate in rules discussion here, then keep it civil.

karlosovic wrote: discussion of "toy soldiers"?

But this is a discussion of toy soldiers. There are plenty of games out there that are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better strategy/tactical games than GW's poor excuse for rules. But GW has a pretty good playing with toy soldiers ecosystem. Of course I'm a nearly middle aged family man so I drink beer instead of chocolate milk while playing toy soldiers and I don't have to wait until Christmas if I want a shiny new Land Raider. But it's still toy soldiers.

It would still be 'toy soldiers' if the rules were better written. If the game uses toy soldiers for game pieces, then you're playing with toy soldiers.

In any other portion of the forum arguing with a mod like this tends to lead to a ban.

Anyways, the rules are pretty clear. The Bike Priest CAN join a TWC squad, but it nerfs both of their mobility as the Priest can only move 6 inches a turn, while the TWCs can only charge 6 inches a turn, and neither can run. One of the TWC's assets is their Fleet and 12 inch charge, joining anything other than another TWC character takes this away and you basically have footslogging Ogryns in Power armor.

Note that you cannot have the priest move 12, then have the TWC move 6, then run 5 to "catch up". Joining a unit only occurs during the movement phase, none else (this is quite clearly detailed in the book) and the unit must remain in coherency as long as they're joined. If they're outside the 2 inches, then your character is considered to have left the unit, and he cant rejoin in the following phases. They also have to move at the slowest speed in any of the phases too.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:In any other portion of the forum arguing with a mod like this tends to lead to a ban.

Not on Dakka Dakka. We see much worse than this in the Off Topic forum, and there's ben worse than this in the Tournament forum in the last few days as well. Moderators here are happy to get into debates with folks, and we don't punish people for disagreeing with us. We DO occasionally punish people for being rude or otherwise breaking the rules, though if a discussion we're in is actually heated we may ask another Mod to judge and handle it as they deem appropriate.