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 paulson games wrote:
That picture, lol.

I looked over a bunch of the KS comments and there's always gotta be some guy spouting off about "the limitations of 3d printing" which is always a complete load of BS. The prototype pieces Palladum has shown are definitely 3d printed, but so is my model and you don't see all sorts of build lines and rough surfaces. What sets them apart is that Palladium's model is a cheap low resolution print where I use a much higher resolution printer for mine. (There's about a $300 price difference between those print qualities).

It pisses me off when some un-informed yahoo has to cite "limits of printing" like a professional when they know nothing about the process. You can print amazing levels of detail on a piece, the technology may have had limits back 4-5 years ago but nowdays the only "limit" on detail is determined by how much you want to invest in your prints.

Sorry for the rant it just bugs me and particularly when it's being used as an excuse to defend a low end $50 print, you get what you pay for cheap Shapeways prints means a cheap crappy looking model. Hopefully the actual plastics will look much better.

The mecha front model that's shown required literally 5 minutes to clean up and assemble, all I did was do a very quick pass over it with a toothbrush to remove a trace amount of flash, trim off the sprue contact points and it was done. It's not even primed and there were no gaps that needed to be filled, what you see is the actual cast material. Had I stayed on the Robotech project I would have aimed to make a product of similar quality for them, but what can you do?



You also have a similar situation when it comes to molding for plastics, you can do it on the cheap or you can opt for slide core tech but that's determined by how much you want to invest and the final product reflects that as well.

I think their showing at Gama was pretty sad, it's the premier event for the industry and they brought stuff that look like it was an ebay second hand find that was built by a ten year old. They seriously brought that to show off to all their peers? No way in hell it'd happen like that with any of my stuff, ugh.

I'm probably in that bunch then, being an engineer I can understand give and take and have expressed my opinion that they might be some reason for doing the minis the way they did. BUT, I also made sure to say I have no experience with models and mini making. I think everyone needs to take it down a few notches. Some of those AGRESSIVELY defending and attacking are going way too far.

Now, that being said. Feel free to post that pic on the Facebook page.

Being the owner of the FB page I can try to keep things civil BUT I'm not there to censor unless language and tempers get out of hand. It is my page that I created to have fun, not argue on. We can keep that in the KS comments.


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And I made page 118, sweet

I can see why they built the models the way they did as I'm fairly versed in how items need to be set up for plastics (but not an expert) However there are other ways they could have approached some of the components that would have been a bit more user friendly. Basically they have somebody working the engineering side that took a practical approach to making the model, but they are viewing it entirely from the engineering side and doesn't have a well refined consideration in what the end user wants or expects.

That's why with a lot of different products they have middle managers to make sure that the needs of the engineers line up with a more user friendly form. To me it looks like they didn't have anyone with the artistic/modeling knowledge working in that arrangement. The pieces are well built to meet a technical function, but the end form leaves a lot to be desired.

IMO much of that comes from experience and having a working knowledge built up from past projects and a working background in miniatures. The Dreamforge titans for instance didn't just "happen" both Mark and WGF had to build up a proper skill set from previous kits and even then it required constant input and corrections from the artist (Mark). The result was a mold and finished kit that was fully functional on the technical end but also had a tremendous amount of end user consideration built into it, which made it a very rare and successful product for a start up launch item.


I think what they ended going for was too ambitious for wargaming models and it doesn't fit the needs of the end user properly. While we all like semi poseable figures like our space marines when it comes down to it 95% of the gamer audience builds their models in all the same stock poses despite the modularity. We don't need fully articulated models at that scale and the models could use a fraction of the parts with a reduced modularity and still fill the users needs just fine. Make 3-5 poses of veritechs cut the part count to 6-10 parts and people would still be plenty happy.

That is the best answer I've heard all day. Reasoning that makes sense.

I would rather have better detailed Battletech minis that I'd have 4 or 5 pieces to put together too. I'm not a patient person and still have a lot of unpainted Battletech minis. I hate painting

Paulson....with the information you know about the process of mini making, what's your prognosis as far as what the end product will turn out like for Robotech RRT?

Best and worse case scenario. I find this enthralling.

Thanks!

Better, is there a quick and low cost way to fix the problems at hand?


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Because cost may likely be an issue. Pride another.

 Forar wrote:
Those GAMA pics look a lot like the prototypes they had back at GAMA 2013 and Gencon (not all of them, these are either primed or a darker material than I recall some of the GC stuff being), but they might not necessarily be representative of the actual figures as mass produced (good or bad).

Yes, yes, giving them the benefit of the doubt seems strange here to me too, but it's worth noting that the recent GAMA pics, best I can tell and from what the article reads, might not actually mean anything other than "we've had sculptors totally making some hot prototypes".

Which is a frustrating place to be; they'll laud the quality and how awesome and exciting and happy everyone is for them, but gloss over any critique with "oh, but that'll be fixed in production".

*jazz hands*

This is from the RH thread via BrookM. I thought we could make some use of it here:

Honestly I don't know as I'm not privy to any of that info and anything I'd say is pure speculation. As for where they are truly at in the process my guess is as good or bad as anyone else that's not a PB or ND employee. Supposedly they were 90% done months ago, based on the renders and previews I do find that kinda doubtful they are that far along but I have no clue where they are in the process. I also don't know what type of contracts they might be locked into, a large number of companies require deposits to ensure your projects place in line for the year. It's doubtful they could pick up and move to another plastics company without encuring a serious loss. At this point they could very well be deep enough into the project that there's no way to change things and it may just be a situation where they just have to grin and bear it and keep working with what they have.

They are not in an easy situation, it's huge and complex project particularly for company dealing with it being their entry into a new industry. I think they had big plans but when those plans hit reality those expectations quickly wilt as it was based on an in-experienced understanding of what would be involved. Should they make it to a second project it'll likely be an invaluable learning experience and the next would greatly benefit from it.


The problem as I see it is that Kevin was promising the moon in terms of quality, but trying to work in a budget range that's not capable of providing the tech base that's needed to match that detailing. (like slide core molding which is easily multiple times the cost depending on the sprue sizes) It's not that he didn't want to offer the best product he could but he likely didn't have a full grasp on what miniatures gamers want out of a product. We prefer a reasonable approximation of things, something that looks good on the table but doesn't require it to be exact. for example our space marines are grossly deformed when it comes to actual proportions but they work within the establish style and viewed at a distance. Beyond the technical aspects of making miniatures it is largely still an art form and isn't a skill you can just waltz into doing, it requires a sense of personal flare. It's just like I can't suddenly write a novel just because I buy a box of pencils, it takes a lot of development time and practice. Even people with a background in digital modeling can't just switch over to doing miniatures without a significant learning curve and needing experimentation to get the right touch.

I think that's stuff that was needed to be factored in during the launch of the project and I'm not certain how possible it is to play catch up at a point late in the game. I think they'll make good on the project but I think it'll likely be well past the already pushed back target dates. I don't see how they can make gencon based on what's been shown, I have a suspicion that the 1st wave won't hit until Oct or maybe even a late as the end of the year? Gencon could be possible provide nothing hangs up at all, but I've yet to see any companies with overseas plastic projects manage that, they have all had significant delays during the production and/or shipping phase.


.

Thank you Paulson for coming here and providing insight into how this works. As a long time 40k guy I've always wanted knowledge of how this works. In fact sir you've done more with your few post than PB has with their updates. Since it's such a steep learning curve I see how difficult it must be for PB to give info since they just don't have the experience.

Looking forward to your ks next month for Mecha Front. Do you have a link to the models you'll be offering next month? I know it will be advertised in the RRT ks page.

Great and informative post, Paulson.

From what you say I'm thinking this whole thing started out fueled on dangerous combination over-hype and inexperience.
I heard about the 98% done and 'it's coming out early' communication snafu's. Wow!

Now it appears the whole thing has bogged down, the natives are restless and Palladium has put on the blinders and is hell bent on 'staying the course'. The so called "Gen Con Suicide Pact'.

Sadly, I am well acquainted with Palladium's track record and business practices and they aren't straying from their usual patterns with this project.

I think this project is in a lot of trouble. A lot.
Too many pieces. Waay too many. Inferior one's at that.
A PR nightmare is now raging out of control on the Comment sections of the KS page.

Folks weren't expecting this much work. My guess is nostalgia, more than anything drove the kickstarter to $1.4+ million. I'm sure the hype storm added fuel to the fire.

I really hope that this doesn't end up the trainwreck it's looking like.

Thanks for the input.

PB better have something "added" to make up for this train wreck, especially when delivery slips beyond Gencon. I don't see them doing it, but they will lose all kinds of face when it slides even later. Terrible.

Those guys Jaymz and Peter over on the Mike's facebook page deserve a medal for putting Anthony Kopah in his place (even though it wont do much help). The same drivel is coming out of his mouth, and they are defending those that he is attacking viciously (he should really cut it with the "switch to pre-produced minis" bull).

@Paulson- Very informative posts. I enjoyed the read and your insights on mini making and production matters. I like the info on how your mech was an easy clean-up before putting it together (as compared to the OMG NO clean-up for robotech).

I find the hobby is more about the customization (conversions) and painting. You know...making the minis your own, in your own vision. Clean-up and error fixing are not. They add nothing to the overall creativity, imagination, and enjoyment. But they sure as heck will take away if not done, thus the problem with the amounts needed on those PB/ND sculpts.

Edit: Sorry for ranting again. I don't actually mean to.

The other issue I see with seams that bad is that they make the quality of the rest of the miniature relatively academic. I'm an experienced minis painter and also a model builder, but the amount of putty that I'm going to need to fill those gaps will be pretty noticeable even with sanding and filing (gak). So we'll have minis with great details marred by big putty lines. Uggh...

FYI- Sent a polite but strongly worded email to PB about a refund based on quality on March 17th. Still haven't heard anything back. If I don't hear from them by Monday or Tuesday, I'll probably post it here and on the KS.

Jazz Hands
Gencon Suicide Pact
Seamgate
Mouth Watering Minis

Told to not complain in the comments section during update #116.

PB only posting to pick a fight with an angry backer.

And the promise of maybe having the game 3 to 4 months after the project ended, said the day after the ks ended.

And were only halfway there folks. What else is going to end up haunting PB? Sheesh!

 Cypher-xv wrote:
Jazz Hands
Gencon Suicide Pact
Seamgate
Mouth Watering Minis

Told to not complain in the comments section during update #116.

PB only posting to pick a fight with an angry backer.

And the promise of maybe having the game 3 to 4 months after the project ended, said the day after the ks ended.

And were only halfway there folks. What else is going to end up haunting PB? Sheesh!

Uh, you have to care to be haunted by something. This was a straight up money grab, with the idea to lowball everything from the start.

I hope PB version of the YF-4 is close to bandai's VF-4. This one so only 9 pieces no glue required. This is 1/250. Not that far from 1/285.

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a457/cypherxv/72212e78bc699bdc402032df05639220_zps82b657a3.jpg

[The crazy thing is this was manufactured in China too.]

Anyway feel free to repost elsewhere.

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Uh, you have to care to be haunted by something. This was a straight up money grab, with the idea to lowball everything from the start.

If they do another Kickstarter campaign, the comments section will need someone moderating 24/7. One month of non-stop hilarity.

 Forar wrote:

 Salacious Greed wrote:
Uh, you have to care to be haunted by something. This was a straight up money grab, with the idea to lowball everything from the start.

If they do another Kickstarter campaign, the comments section will need someone moderating 24/7. One month of non-stop hilarity.

Yeah, no matter what I'm backing their next Kickstarter (at lowest possible level) just so I don't miss out on the action.

It'd be funny though if it was for a coffee mug or dice bag or something though. Just imagining the rage storm as the coffee mug or dice bag is delayed for a year, shoddy looking or has typos on it.

I got burned majorly by their 'in house' kickstarter for Northern Gun 1 & 2. When I heard about it (after it had ended) I thought the idea of running a game based on Great Lakes smuggling and piracy in the Rifts universe would be fun. At the time I had only one RIFTS® book, the original first edition. I asked my friends if they'd be interested in playing.and they really dug the concept. So at this point, Kevin had assured us that the book would be ready in 6 or so weeks. Eh, being out of gaming for years and not really grasping that everything that comes out of his mouth is either a lie or a delusion, Pick one. I bit on the hype and started buying RIFTS® books.

I bought two of their Xmas Grabbags and like 20 other books, selling off some stuff I now regret to pay for some of it.

Up and running, thinking after a couple of sessions the first NG book would be done, the second one promised 2 or 3 weeks after that. I run my game every other week, so I planned on running some intro type missions and the whole Northern Gun thing would be blended to the mix in a smooth fashion. Well the weeks turned into months, then a year.I spent my entire summer having to come up with missions and reasons why my Northern Gun smuggling band for some reason never actually went to their home base. It became a running joke. I'd read off the weekly updates before every session and we'd all trash Palladium a bit.

Things actually got worse when I realized over all the massive amount of books I'd bought that basic things weren't ever fleshed out as well. Like Chi-town (the Death Star of the Rifts universe)...no book, no info or very little, basically nothing usable. There was also the good guys home base city (where my smugglers were supposed to trade to)...New Lazlo...think the Rebel Base but for magic users. All the info on New Lazlo from my stack of books,now approaching two feet of shelf space could be fit on a 3 X 5 card. Both locations are majorly important to the game universe, Chi-Town actually the main focus. No book...little info...25 years in.

I then started analyzing the books and found they were mostly toy catalogs of new weapons, very much like the old weapons, but with a new picture and some stats. And the rest of the books were filled with 'flavor text' that took page after page to basically say nothing. You could glean information out of them, but it was painful having to read all this, when a box of text and a few bullet points would have served. Imagine if you bought an RPG that was written in the form of a novel and you had to either take notes or use a highlighter as you read along. That's what it felt like.

The game became such a joke at about the 6 months past promised release date that I started having more fun with it, It became a complete and intentional mockery of RIFTS® and Palladium. This fun eventually got old as the books were about a year past due and I moved onto something else (Call of Cthulhu). I've been happy ever since. Ignored NG1's eventual release....I think 15 or 16 months late at the point of it's release. NG part 2 is still not out. I think it's like 2 years late at this point. Having to endure it's almost done for years of weekly updates goes from amusing, to cruel, to stupid, to this guy needs help, he must have some sort of bulls@*tter's disorder. Yeah Morgan Fairchild....

The above post should be reposted on the RRT ks page to prepare backers for what's to come. I mean if it took that long for a book, their bread and butter. Something they've done for 20 plus yrs. Imagine RRT models something they've never done.

Thanks for reading and liking my post. I needed to vent...I actually moved some Palladium stuff into boxes to stuff in my garage's attic and it brought up some memories.

This site chronicles all of Palladium's follies...the announcement dates, the scheduled release dates, the delays, and if maybe the actual release dates.

It's a fascinating read. https://sites.google.com/site/pbpubprobs/the-developing


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Here's the info for the next two scheduled releases from Palladium Books. Oh Boy!


Rifts World Book 34: Northern Gun Two
Announced: September 29, 2011 PR – "In development"
Scheduled: January 13, 2012 PR – April 2012
Status—Last Week: March or April 2014
Status—This Week: April 2014
Number of Times Release Date Postponed: 23
In Production: 2 years 24 weeks 6 days

Rifts World Book 35: Megaverse in Flames (Minion War: Part 5) 4
Announced: Rifter 32 (Oct 05), p.13C – "Coming in 2006"
Status—Last Week: April 2014
Status—This Week: April or May 2014
Number of Times Release Date Postponed: 43
In Production: 8 years 22 weeks 1 day

Neither are out yet.

8 1/2 years is a hell of a long time to be working on a book for an RPG.

Did Rifts change editions in between then and now?

Nope. They came up with a updated edition, but still first edition.

With practices like this I'm utterly shocked they're still in business.

They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters), so it's easy to have books 8 years late when you have an order of magnitude more that you've teased your fans with for the last decade and put them onto the 'coming soon' list faster than you take them off.

Ninja Division supposedly being the ones in charge of minis and the rules was what got me on board. Watching PB take so much onto themselves after the fact feels more and more like a bait and switch these days.

"Oh man, Palladium, they're always late."

"But it's not Palladium! Ninja Division, whom have experience with minis, are doing the Kickstarter, and the minis, and the rules, and we're just giving feedback!"

Suuuuuure.

 Alpharius wrote:
8 1/2 years is a hell of a long time to be working on a book for an RPG.

Did Rifts change editions in between then and now?

Bwaahhaaaaa! Oh, alpharius, you so funny! Original rifts books from 1989 are still 99% compatible with the game in 2014 (you just need to add 2 to the number of attacks for NPCs and characters). That is the state of Palladium RPG gaming unfortunately.


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 Forar wrote:
They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters),

I believe for the calendar years of 2012, 2013, and 2014 that they're only at 5 new books total (and that includes the Dead Reign one with a page count that technically classifies it as a pamphlet according to the UN) not counting "anniversary" reprints and "updated" books with one new chapter's worth of info.

Robotech Genesis Pits, Rifts Lemuria, Rifts NGR 1, Dead Reign something, and possibly a Rifts Vampire book. Any I missed?

 warboss wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
8 1/2 years is a hell of a long time to be working on a book for an RPG.

Did Rifts change editions in between then and now?

Bwaahhaaaaa! Oh, alpharius, you so funny! Original rifts books from 1989 are still 99% compatible with the game in 2014 (you just need to add 2 to the number of attacks for NPCs and characters). That is the state of Palladium RPG gaming unfortunately.


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 Forar wrote:
They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters),

I believe for the calendar years of 2012, 2013, and 2014 that they're only at 5 new books total (and that includes the Dead Reign one with a page count that technically classifies it as a pamphlet according to the UN) not counting "anniversary" reprints and "updated" books with one new chapter's worth of info.

Robotech Genesis Pits, Rifts Lemuria, Rifts NGR 1, Dead Reign something, and possibly a Rifts Vampire book. Any I missed?

The funny thing you always read in the updates is how they work 16 hour days and on Saturdays and he's always on fire writing.

So if all you did was write for 10 hours a day for 200 days a year...why the F can't you get anything accomplished? They average 2 or 3 books a year and a lot of the time they are manuscripts written by a freelancer and are just gone over by Kevin.

If you follow the progress via the weekly updates the books are always being rushed to completion (cuz they're always late), then they go pretty much from KS's computer to the printer. No editing, no playtesting, no professional proofreading.

The last time a book was on time was 2006 and that was a frikken coloring book!!

Which was a gyp job anyway. It was the artists pencil layout sketches slapped together in book form. Not really a coloring book,
I tossed the two I got in Xmas grab bags right in the trash.

In that video from GAMA did anyone else catch the guy saying that the minis where getting done in ABS plastic?

I always thought polystyrene was the best for model kits, and ABS was better for toys(same stuff they use for lego bricks). From what I've always heard ABS was stronger but not as good with details and paint.


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Guess I should have been paying attention more. The kickstater FAQ says it was going to be done in ABS.

Yeah, we've been told it'd be in ABS since the early days. People were asking from the very start, to ascertain whether or not Rick and the other Limited Edition figures would be ABS or Resin or what.

Apparently there may be a few resin or metal bits included (for example, in the VEF1/1D pack, which may differ at retail from what the backers are getting), but the vast majority will be ABS.

So what models out there in the real world are in ABS now, so that I can see what we're in store for? Guess I didn't really pay attention to it that much before.

Most model kit are actually done in ABS, which is still poly-styrene but it's a modified blend to make it more durable then pure styrene. So for miniatures it's "a good thing" and not a cheap/substandard product. I could probably go into a lot more detail on the technical end, but in the 20 years since I took chemistry I've been doing my best to kill the science part of my brain with booze and model glue fumes. The science part of my brain gets angry when I poke at it to wake it up, so much like the math part I try to leave them alone as much as possible


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene



Also objet styled prints like the ones they did the prototype pieces in use thin layers of ABS material held together by a wax binder in order to make the model. The ABS part is quite tough, but the wax binder is fairly weak so the parts take to sanding and being scraped fairly well but the prints are pretty fragile when placed under stress like bending or having weight applied to it they snap pretty easy because it's the wax layers that lets go and weakens the piece.

Solid ABS like what they use with injection molding is pretty durable

So, is the game still written by Alessio?