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HQ
86 commander plas/missile fire both weapons
Elite
184 Crisis suit BS4 TL missile pod w/ failsafe detonator
184 Crisis suit BS4 TL missile pod w/ failsafe detonator
Heavy
250 broadsides, 2 S drones target lock
250 broadsides, 2 S drones target lock
Troops
153 15 kroot 8 kroot hounds
153 15 kroot 8 kroot hounds
120 fire warriors
120 fire warriors
------
1500

Crisis suits in the back walled off by fire warriors who are, in turn, walled off by kroot. Use missles to crack transports while my broadsides bring down anything big and scary (land rader, Leman russes). The failsafe detonators are for if a solid melee unit makes it through my kroot and hit the crisis suits I can pull 1 or two of them out and nuke the attackers and not just loose the squad to a sweeping advance (as happened in my first game with them)

My only issue that I see here is that againt a true horde army I have nothing I can do, I could drop one set of Broadsides for a hammerhead for it's submunition rounds. but that still seems fairly week and I'm dropping 2 TL railguns.

Awesome Christ wrote:HQ 86 commander plas/missile fire both weapons
Elite
184 Crisis suit BS4 TL missile pod w/ failsafe detonator
184 Crisis suit BS4 TL missile pod w/ failsafe detonator

I think the FD is a waste. *Any* contingency plan for getting into h2h is *thinking* 'fail'. Far better is Target Array.

Awesome Christ wrote:250 broadsides, 2 S drones target lock
250 broadsides, 2 S drones target lock

Are there Bonding Knives in these?

Well, to start off with, I would overhaul the list. You have a decent skeleton of suits n' kroot, which is the way to go with tau. Now we just have to give some definition to the list.

First, the points are off on the commander. A Shas'el with Plasma Rifle / Missile Pod / Multi-tracker is 87 points. Second: failsafe detonators. I totally lol'd at that. They're a total waste of points, on top of the fact that you can only take one per army. If you could take multiples per army and they were cheaper they might be good, but as they stand you're not doing yourself any favors. Cut them. But once you do that you have my favorite type of crisis suit: the deathrain. So props going with TL Missile Pods + Targeting Arrays on your elite suits, because not a lot of players believe me when I say they're the best.

Moving right along, your broadsides need some work. Shield drones are useless. If you want ablative wounds just go with gun drones—they're cheaper and can theoretically kill something. Tau win by killing things not by being defensive, and drones on suit units are purely defensive. Nix them for more guns.

Your troop choices also need some work. If you look at the stat line of kroot hounds and compare them to kroot carnivores, you'll find that the hounds are strictly better than carnivores—they're I5 and cost one less point. So the conventional wisdom is to min/max the unit with a minimum of carnivores (10) and as many hounds as you can manage. Also, fire warriors suck. I take a min squad of six because I have to. Also, I like to give them carbines because there's an off chance the carbines might actually do something.

So, accounting for the foregoing, this is what I recommend:

1500/1500

1500/1500

--HQ--

1 Crisis Commander 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
-HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elite--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 145
1 Devilfish
-Disruption Pod

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

--Heavy Support--

3 Broadside Battlesuit 250
-Advanced Stabilization System x3
-Team Leader
--HW Target Lock

1 Hammerhead 165
-Disruption Pod
-Railgun
-Burst Cannons
-Multi-tracker

This list builds on what I think you're trying to accomplish. It has more suits, less kroot (but I don't think you can help that) and a couple tanks. I like the A.S.S on the broadsides because I don't like it when they can't move and shoot. But it's the same price as targeting arrays, so if you want BS4 instead of move and shoot, I can understand that. I generally keep the suits way back and plink away with missile pods while keeping the command squad mid-field to pepper with plasma and then JSJ (jump/shoot/jump) behind the kroot wall. You use the kroot to give cover saves to your suits and protect them from charging you.

Hope that helps,

Knute

I'd go with a strong core of battlesuits and fire warriors (the latter preferably with a devilfish and markerlight), then you can focus on 'cool stuff' so to speak. Also, the kroot may want to take some kroot hounds, just for a bit more fighting power (but no krootox, they stop your infiltration). Also, i generally prefer different weapons on my battlesuits, just to make them more versatile, or to give them a specific battlefield role eg Tank Hunting or Troop Killing. And i tend to give my battlesuits lots of upgrades to make each individual as good as possible.

Knute wrote:Moving right along, your broadsides need some work. Shield drones are useless. If you want ablative wounds just go with gun drones—they're cheaper and can theoretically kill something. Tau win by killing things not by being defensive, and drones on suit units are purely defensive. Nix them for more guns.

This is bad advice, Knute. Trade a 2+/4++ T4 model for a GunD, which has a 4+ only and T3? No, thanks.

But you say trade for the Carbines on the GD? Why? Broadsides are there to hit tanks. What's the Carbine going to do? Chip paint? From 18" away?

Okay, that's a StrawMan fallacy but it still holds water given that the railguns will do most of the talking, from far away.
To address your legitimate point: the GDs would fire in concert with the XV88s' SMS for anti-Infantry; However, any use of their a SMS is either late game mop up (ideally) which 2 Twin-LinkBS2 shots won't help or if the hordes are getting too close, in which case the tau player is losing the game.

Either way, two GDs' "fire power" isn't so great as a 2 up Armor Save, the added Toughness and 4+ Invuln of a Shield Drone. Even for the GDs' less points.

My opinion is shared by pretty much every other tau poster on dakka, FlingItNow, CottonJaw, The Bringer, etc.

Knute wrote:Well, to start off with, I would overhaul the list. You have a decent skeleton of suits n' kroot, which is the way to go with tau. Now we just have to give some definition to the list.

First, the points are off on the commander. A Shas'el with Plasma Rifle / Missile Pod / Multi-tracker is 87 points. Second: failsafe detonators. I totally lol'd at that. They're a total waste of points, on top of the fact that you can only take one per army. If you could take multiples per army and they were cheaper they might be good, but as they stand you're not doing yourself any favors. Cut them. But once you do that you have my favorite type of crisis suit: the deathrain. So props going with TL Missile Pods + Targeting Arrays on your elite suits, because not a lot of players believe me when I say they're the best.

Fair enough the failsafe detonators were because lilith and 4 wyches hit my kroot... routed them only loosing a couple wytchs then lilith hit my Crisis suits with crisis commander, I scored one wound, she routed them. it would have been nice to try to instant death her and keep a suit or two, but I see what you mean, I'll drop them.

Knute wrote:Moving right along, your broadsides need some work. Shield drones are useless. If you want ablative wounds just go with gun drones—they're cheaper and can theoretically kill something. Tau win by killing things not by being defensive, and drones on suit units are purely defensive. Nix them for more guns.

I'll play test both sets, but I think that the Shield drones with an ablative wound with an extra 2+/4++ could and should come in handy on a unit that pricy that's fairly subject to instand death.

Knute wrote:Your troop choices also need some work. If you look at the stat line of kroot hounds and compare them to kroot carnivores, you'll find that the hounds are strictly better than carnivores—they're I5 and cost one less point. So the conventional wisdom is to min/max the unit with a minimum of carnivores (10) and as many hounds as you can manage. Also, fire warriors suck. I take a min squad of six because I have to. Also, I like to give them carbines because there's an off chance the carbines might actually do something.

The kroot you're suggesting are closer to my origonal model, I just went with a few more carnivores to shot and soften up units before they get to me, but I may just go back to my previous 10/8. firewarriors I don't se as useless, they can't get to many upgrades (which is their biggest failing I think) but they still have 30" str 5 shots, they can do a number on infantry and armour 10. (popped 2 raiders with just fire warriors)

Knute wrote:So, accounting for the foregoing, this is what I recommend:

1500/1500

1500/1500

--HQ--

1 Crisis Commander 87
-Plasma Rifle
-Missile Pod
-Multi-tracker
2 Bodyguard 164
-Plasma Rifle x2
-Missile Pod x2
-Targeting Array x2
-HW Multi-tracker x2

--Elite--

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

3 Crisis Suit 159
-TL Missile Pod x3
-Targeting Array x3

--Troops--

6 Fire Warriors 145
1 Devilfish
-Disruption Pod

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

10 Kroot Carnivores 106
6 Kroot Hounds

--Heavy Support--

3 Broadside Battlesuit 250
-Advanced Stabilization System x3
-Team Leader
--HW Target Lock

1 Hammerhead 165
-Disruption Pod
-Railgun
-Burst Cannons
-Multi-tracker

This list builds on what I think you're trying to accomplish. It has more suits, less kroot (but I don't think you can help that) and a couple tanks. I like the A.S.S on the broadsides because I don't like it when they can't move and shoot. But it's the same price as targeting arrays, so if you want BS4 instead of move and shoot, I can understand that. I generally keep the suits way back and plink away with missile pods while keeping the command squad mid-field to pepper with plasma and then JSJ (jump/shoot/jump) behind the kroot wall. You use the kroot to give cover saves to your suits and protect them from charging you.

Hope that helps,

Knute

I'm not a fan of the avanced stabalization system since I'm going to be trying to put them in a back corner somewhere in cover in the 32 floor if possible, I'd rather have BS 4. As for the kroot wall, that's exactly how I was fielding them, they were meat shields... for the greater good. I'm also not a huge fan of plas/missile, more expensive and I feel just dedicating them to one cause is a better call.

How does this look

HQ
90 Crisis Commander TL plas, Targeting array
Elite
159 Crisis suitTargeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
Troops
112 10 kroot 7 kroot hounds
106 10 kroot 6 kroot hounds
60 fire warriors
Heavy
250 targeting array Team Leader HW Target Lock
155 Hammerhead disruption pod
150 Hammerhead
-----
1495


This gives me a 1 less suit than my origonal list, but I have two large blast templates to deal with hordes which really was my biggest worry before, I reworked the kroot back to the origonal form, dropped the fire wariors down which kinda makes me sad but the extra template should make up for them. I wrote in the body guard at first and then kinda realized that for the same price I could put in a third group of crisis suits I didn't have yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer some of the other questions, no, there were no bonding knives on my broadsides.

And to Sledgio, I find that crisis suits get too expensive FAST if you try to really customize them.

Awesome Christ wrote:Heavy targeting array Team Leader HW Target Lock

I think the BK's price is worth rallying two XV88s.

Awesome Christ wrote: Hammerhead disruption pod
Hammerhead

Both ought to have DisPods. And then MultiTrackers to Move&Shoot like Fast Vehicles, ensuring more mobility and being harder to hit should something fast catch it. Points? Maybe one more Deathrain+ out?

Awesome Christ wrote:
Fair enough the failsafe detonators were because lilith and 4 wyches hit my kroot... routed them only loosing a couple wytchs then lilith hit my Crisis suits with crisis commander, I scored one wound, she routed them. it would have been nice to try to instant death her and keep a suit or two, but I see what you mean, I'll drop them.

Yeah, Lelith will do that to T3 models. It's one of the props to having a save. The Kroot should be more of a diversionary, protection unit that essentially gets in people's way and makes them spend a turn dealing with them. 15 Kroot and 8 Hounds are far too many and I think you did good in taking the advice and reducing their numbers.

Failsafe Detonators really are not as safe as they claim. Just take a black Sharpie to that entry along with "Command and Control Node."

Awesome Christ wrote:
I'll play test both sets, but I think that the Shield drones with an ablative wound with an extra 2+/4++ could and should come in handy on a unit that pricy that's fairly subject to instand death.

No offense to Knute. I mean, I respect the guy and what he says but I'll spend 5 points for a 2+/4++. The Twin-Linked Pulse Carbine is rather useless really. Not for anti-tank so shooting a tank makes it useless. Not really a factor in anti-Infantry since it hits JUST more than the actual Broadsides. I don't want my Broadsides running cause a Drone missed a 4+ save and fell off the board. I'll feel a little better if it's a 2+.

Awesome Christ wrote:
The kroot you're suggesting are closer to my origonal model, I just went with a few more carnivores to shot and soften up units before they get to me, but I may just go back to my previous 10/8. firewarriors I don't se as useless, they can't get to many upgrades (which is their biggest failing I think) but they still have 30" str 5 shots, they can do a number on infantry and armour 10. (popped 2 raiders with just fire warriors)

If you are tailoring a list to beat Dark Eldar, Fire Warriors will play a larger role in your army because they can take out Tanks and Infantry. Against other armies, you're most likely wanting to take other things (Crisis, Broadsides) and they kind of resort to meh once you fight Marines.

Awesome Christ wrote:
How does this look

HQ
90 Crisis Commander TL plas, Targeting array
Elite
159 Crisis suitTargeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
Troops
112 10 kroot 7 kroot hounds
106 10 kroot 6 kroot hounds
60 fire warriors
Heavy
250 targeting array Team Leader HW Target Lock
155 Hammerhead disruption pod
150 Hammerhead
-----
1495


This gives me a 1 less suit than my origonal list, but I have two large blast templates to deal with hordes which really was my biggest worry before, I reworked the kroot back to the origonal form, dropped the fire wariors down which kinda makes me sad but the extra template should make up for them. I wrote in the body guard at first and then kinda realized that for the same price I could put in a third group of crisis suits I didn't have yet.

Looks better than your original one. As posted, its 1400 on the button, not 1495. Methinks a Devilfish got lost somewhere. Couple of things:

>> Twin-linking and Targeting Array on the Commander is a touch too much. Either one or the other is better. Twin-linking means you hit more often than a BS5 model and doing both means you never miss but with what? A single Plasma Rifle? I wouldn't do it.
>> Brothererekose is correct. Your Hammerheads NEED two things: Multi-Trackers (so you can fire like a Fast Vehicle) and Disruption Pod (mobile cover)


HQ - 73
73 Commander - TL Missile Pod, Target Lock

Elite - 477
159 Crisis x3 - TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array
159 Crisis x3 - TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array
159 Crisis x3 - TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array

Troops - 369
112 Kroot x10 + Kroot Hounds x7
112 Kroot x10 + Kroot Hounds x7
145 Fire Warriors + Devilfish - Disruption Pod

Heavy - 580
250 Broadsides - Targeting Array, Team Leader - Bonding Knife
165 Hammerhead - Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker
165 Hammerhead - Burst Cannons, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker
-----
1499

I like how everyone focused on the unimportant part of my drone analysis (gun drones v. shield drones) and ignored the important--namely that drones are useless, defensive choices that don't do anything. If you INSIST on taking drones, I'd just go with gun drones solely because they're cheaper. But I normally don't take any drones in any list I run because they're totally defensive list choices. Tau don't win games by being defensive--they win by taking guns. Lots and lots of guns. So, if you're taking something that doesn't have a gun, I think you're wasting your points.

Second, I think you all place way too much faith in the ability of S5 to crack a tank. I'm sorry, it doesn't happen. You'd have to take a stupid amount of fire warriors to crack tanks on a regular basis, which I notice none of you do. Besides, fire warriors can only crack tanks if they're dismounted, and if they're dismounted, they're probably not far away from dying.

As for lists, I like Odyssey's list, though I'm not convinced as to the usefulness of the extra hammerhead. I'd rather have plasma. Without the plasma you're weak against space marines; trust me, the first time you go up against FNP Blood Angels you'll be missing that plasma. But it's still a solid list.

Knute wrote:Tau don't win games by being defensive--they win by taking guns. Lots and lots of guns. So, if you're taking something that doesn't have a gun, I think you're wasting your points.

Which is why Tau players should always take disruption pods on all their vehicles? I respect you as a Tau player, but I would disagree with your statement.

And shield drones do have a purpose, making sure your broadsides don't get ID by high strength weaponry, and having a better save than gun drones so they are better ablative wounds anyways.

On the list:

TL Plasma and a TA is complete overkill. I would go with Plasma/Missile/Multi, and if you really feel the need, give him a TA.
3 Units of deathrains is nasty, but I would highly suggest making one of into fireknives.

Hammerheads (imho) should always come with D-pods, MT, and a TL. (As well as burst cannons).

To get the necessary points for all of that, I would drop a few kroot.

I ran this list yesterday:
HQ
73 Crisis Commander TL misslepods, Targeting array
Elite
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
159 Crisis suit Targeting array,TL missile pod
Troops
112 10 kroot 7 kroot hounds
112 10 kroot 7 kroot hounds
60 6 fire warriors
Heavy
250 targeting array Team Leader Target Lock
155 Hammerhead disruption pod
155 Hammerhead disruption pod
-----
1394

I was 106 points short and still held a space marine biker army AND the guard both coming at me alone with about 75% of their 1500 point armies and lost 2 kill points total to their 4 and 4 each I believe. however it was an objectives mission in which it was a draw.

I never really field devil fish, I might pick one up for objective camping but they're just so damned expensive.

@Bringer: d-pods and shield drones are two different things. First, d-pods cost 5 points, shield drones cost 15. You have to take a specific wargear to take shield drones; you just pay 5 points for a d-pod. Finally, if you lose the drones, you have to take a morale check. At leadership 8, you might have just paid 30 points for the privilege of failing a morale check and seeing your broadsides (which are probably situated in a corner or similarly near the board edge) run off the table.

My solution: suck it up and take more guns. I've had broadsides ID'd before, but it doesn't usually happen. Most times crisis suits are higher up on the target priority list than broadsides. But generally, my broadsides are the last thing to die, and they usually die to massed fire, not ID. Therefore, in my experience, shield drones aren't needed.

@Christ: First, I think your name would be funnier if it were Buddy Jesus. Second, why do you insist on running hammerheads without the second-best wargear for tau vehicles, namely multi-trackers? 10 points is a steal to let your vehicles shoot like fast vehicles. Also, as loathe as I am to spend more points on fire warriors, at this point level I like giving the fire warriors a stripped-down devilfish to make them more survivable. Otherwise, I like your list. Oh, and you can definitely pick up a d-fish for cheap online. Hell, I would sell you one of mine if you really needed one.

So far my hammerheads have been fairly immobile, with my extra points I might just grab them though and use them a little more aggressively and mobile.

When I say that devilfish are expensive I mean that they're 80 points... for a not fast, no firing points, large target paperweight, a well armoured paperweight compared to other transports, but a paperweight none the less.

I'll elaborate a little, you're putting 6 fire warriors in it, it's now 140 points, 145 if you toss on disruption pods, that's 145 points that could almost buy me another group of Crisis suits. as you said: I want Guns lots of guns lots of guns lots of guns.

You're exactly right. That's why I don't run any more than the requisite 1+ fire warrior min squad. But when the list has exactly 85 points left, and you already have 13-15 suits in the list, then I can't see how you could spend the points better than to mount the fire warriors up, especially at this point level.

Knute wrote:You're exactly right. That's why I don't run any more than the requisite 1+ fire warrior min squad. But when the list has exactly 85 points left, and you already have 13-15 suits in the list, then I can't see how you could spend the points better than to mount the fire warriors up, especially at this point level.

Fair cop, I wouldn't mind tossing in some light skimmers instead though when I finally get them, but until them I may as well throw down a Devilfish.

Yeah, I tried to include piranha in my 1500 point list, but I decided to go whole horse and just take a hammerhead because I figured I could use the extra railgun more than I could use two piranha. But this is generally the only point level at which I would run a hammerhead.

Knute wrote:Yeah, I tried to include piranha in my 1500 point list, but I decided to go whole horse and just take a hammerhead because I figured I could use the extra railgun more than I could use two piranha. But this is generally the only point level at which I would run a hammerhead.

Really? do they loose effectiveness at higher point values? is it just that they only get 1 non-twinlinked shot instead of broadsides that can do so much more?

If this is the case what do you use to deal with hordes? 180 orks will not be dissuaded slowed by 30ish missile/rail shots per turn.

At higher points values broadsides are in very high demand, and thus many don't go with the hammerhead. Its mainly a case of not enough HS slots...

To deal with hordes, use kroot and fire warriors.

Yeah, tau don't do so well against horde orks, no matter what list you run, but luckily horde orks don't do well against anything else, so that's what you're counting on at tourneys.

Mech Orks are another story entirely though, but they play into your anti-tank game, so you don't need to worry so much about that.

@Knute:

Knute wrote:
I like how everyone focused on the unimportant part of my drone analysis (gun drones v. shield drones) and ignored the important--namely that drones are useless, defensive choices that don't do anything. If you INSIST on taking drones, I'd just go with gun drones solely because they're cheaper. But I normally don't take any drones in any list I run because they're totally defensive list choices. Tau don't win games by being defensive--they win by taking guns. Lots and lots of guns. So, if you're taking something that doesn't have a gun, I think you're wasting your points.

Believe me, I understand completely. In the last post we discussed taking guns a-blazing, I agreed with you entirely. The only thing I take Drones on at all are Broadsides. From the beginning, I always just write down 200 points for Broadsides. Guess its old habits. Guess I don't like Broadsides hit by a Lascannon. But, as you say, I also place my Broadsides on the table edge. So, I suppose your point is warranted. However, it just makes me feel better having protection on one of my few AV12+ units.

Knute wrote:
Second, I think you all place way too much faith in the ability of S5 to crack a tank. I'm sorry, it doesn't happen. You'd have to take a stupid amount of fire warriors to crack tanks on a regular basis, which I notice none of you do. Besides, fire warriors can only crack tanks if they're dismounted, and if they're dismounted, they're probably not far away from dying.

As far as Fire Warriors go, they look good on the tabletop and are cool to boot. But I have the lowest expectations when they do. I expect any amount of Fire Warriors I decide to bring to do the following:
>> 1 MEQ
>> 3 GEQ
So I'm not high on Fire Warriors at all. However, when your opponent is Dark Eldar Skimmers and he kind of misses Fire Warriors in bigger numbers. So, using them to MAYBE dismount some Warriors might be a nifty idea but definitely nothing to count on to be sure.

As far as Plasma, the reason I didn't include any is because the OP said he's not really high on Fireknives. I am however. I see the lack of Plasma as a problem but we're making a list to help him in the end so it's really up to AwesomeChrist.


@AwesomeChrist
I like how you keep making lists that are under points yet somehow do pretty well. : D (There will never be any Ork-moticons when I discuss Tau.)

Devilfish are expensive. It's the cost of an old Codex. I look at my friend's Chimeras and see what they bring for their points and am envious. However, we have to make do. Devilfish are more survivable than Fire Warriors and Fire Warriors make the more survivable tank scoring. It's quite the conundrum but a necessary evil.

A Devilfish and two Multi-Trackers will bring you up to points. Multi-Trackers are just so you can scoot 12" to make it harder for opponents to hit you as well as move further and get open shots.

As much as we don't want to do things if we don't have to (FW + Devilfish), it's the burden of the 1+. Sadly, no getting around it.