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Alright so I play eldar and I have a bunch of random units that don't work too well together (causing me to often proxy 1 or 2 units, and Im done with it!). I've constructed this 2000pt Mech Eldar List that I would like to have some help perfecting, because after I get it as good as can I'm going to go buy all the models and paint them so everything I play is actually what you see. So here it is:

HQ
160 Farseer- Runes of Warding- Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, Guide, Fortune

290 5 Warlocks- 3 Destructor, Embolden, Enhance, Witchblades, Eldar jetbikes

TROOPS
167 10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
130 Waveserpent- Spirit Stones- EML

177 10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- Diresword and Shimmershield, Catapults, Bladestorm
145 Waveserpent- Spirit Stones- Twin Linked Brightlance

304 12 Guardian Jetbikes- 4 Shuriken Cannons

304 12 Guardian Jetbikes- 4 Shuriken Cannons

HEAVY SUPPORT
160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

1997


also could anyone inform me on some weaknesses and strengths I might run into with this list, never played full mech eldar.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALSO how do you guys feel about Runes of Witnessing. Honestly it's challenging to fail a phyc test with a farseer already, and Runes of Witnessing have caused me to get multiple parels of the warp. Yes I know about his ghosthelm, but still, I'm not known for my good rolling...

you really dont have much close ombat you got a little but not much instead of taking a 2nd squad of diavengers, and get rid of the wave serpaint and replace it with either banshees or striking scoprains that can outflan

290 5 Warlocks- 3 Destructor, Embolden, Enhance, Witchblades, Eldar jetbikes

dump these guys, for 220 pts you can take 10 guardian jetbikes, which makes for a bigger meatshield for your Farseer and is also alot more shooty as well. Also their guardians which means their troops and can thusly take and hold objectives.

for 30 pts more you can upgrade (250 pts now) 3 of them with Shuriken Cannons - 24". str/6, ap/5, assault/3 and for amother 60 pts can include a warlock with conceal, for a total cost of 310 pts. so basically for 20 pts more your getting 6 more guys, 3 of which have a longer range and more powerful weapon.

something else you may not have noticed but due to an error in the book, or maybe it's not, Warlocks still only have 5+ cover if they have enhance, and the 4+ invul save, guardian jetbikes have a 3+ armour save, and if needed the 5+ cover save from the warlock, so you also get a better save against most things that are going to shoot back at you.

since you have already included Jetbikes into your list, you could alternatively use the pts for another tank, or include an Autarch so that the farseer runs with the one squad of bikes and the Autarch with the other. dump the missile launchers on your wave werpent and upgrade to brightlance. new rules state that any vehicle that moves between 6 and 12" may only fire one main weapon(anything over str 6) and one defensive weapon(anything str 6 or less) the wave serpent only has one main weapon and that's in the turret, so brightlance it, and run it 12" every turn.

your going to have 2 problems with your list, the first is armour, fire prisms are great, until they scatter, and then they suck take falcons instead and give them scatter lasers. the pulse laser of a falcon is not quite the power of the prism but it doesn't scatter and you get to two shots from it, the scatter laser is a str 6 weapon so the falcon can run 12" and fire both the scatter laser and the pulse laser. now take the falcon and put a unit of fire dragons in it, if the brightlance wave serpents don't kill the enemy tank by the time your in their face, then the fire dragons will. the second problem your going to have is assualts, dire avengers are best when shooting at the enemy, but not in Hand to Hand, use either striking scorpions or howling banshees. the banshees are equipped with power weapons one and all, they fleet and they counter attack, but they are low str, so use an exarch with executioner. striking scorpions are not equipped w/ power weapons but they are stronger, they also can't fleet but they do infiltrate and have a better armor save than banshees. another choice is Harlequins, given a shadowseer, it becomes difficult for the enemy to shoot them, give them kiss's and they have rending. you'll just have to try it our and see which unit works best for you.

Tactics: i run the brightlance serpents around the outside of the enemy popping shots at thier tanks, the falcons take the middle of the field and head stright for the tanks but they shoot the BIG tank or the infantry, until close enough to pop the fire dragons and let them do their job. One wave serpent carries banshees the other carries avengers, these guys will be the ones who will contest the enemy objectives as well as take and hold it. the jetbikes with farseer stay in the background and guard my objectives while the Autarch and his bike squad go after another objective or another BIG target since i equip the autarch with Laser Lance, fusion gun, and mandiblasters. this guy will lay waste to enemy infantry and vehicles alike, and if you can keep enough of the jetbike guardians alive you can take and hold another objective, but don't be too worried about this, the jetbikes main job is to take the bullet for the Autarch, and the same goes for the ones with the Farseer.

Alright shot number 2 t this list

HQ
160 Farseer- Runes of Warding- Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, Guide, Fortune

148 Autarch- Eldar Jetbike, Banshe Mask, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher

Elites
197 10 Striking Scorpions- Exarch, Bitting Blade, Shadowstrike

TROOPS
167 10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
145 Waveserpent- Spirit Stones- Twin Linked Bright Lance

272 11 Guardian Jetbikes- 3 Shuriken Cannons
63 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, conceal

272 11 Guardian Jetbikes- 4 Shuriken Cannons
63 Warlock- Edar Jetbike, Singingspear, conceal

HEAVY SUPPORT

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

1997

Alright, I totally agreed with you Fire Prism vs. Falcon Comparison. Just the sheer number of shots will make the difference, and on top of that its barley any of a strength difference, 1 I think? Well do to points I had to keep 1 fire prism, also i feel safer having 1 strength 9 gun incase of land raiders. On top of that a lot of people I play with are scared of fire prisms, so it could absorb a lot of shots that could probably be put to better use, which would be nice I guess.... I feel a little low on troops but not considerably, it is 3 big squads. i couldn't afford to give the Autharch a mandiblaster so I figured a banshee mask was fine, it would help the guardians a lot anyways. Also I didn't feel the need to give the striking scorpions a waveserpent, I figure that can be agreed upon easily.

You'll also notice my jetbike squadrons only have 11 in each squad, that was to save points, but also money. With those 2 spare jetbikes I can convert them to Warlocks on jetbikes and save a duckton of real money. Although I didn't grab fire dragons because I felt like they were overkill on the anti tanke, if anything I'de want more troops or another CC unit. Although I'm nervous how the Striking Scorpions will hold up aginst tougher foe, any advise with that?

Wow, this list provides a Saim Hann feelling.
The footprints of the GJB squadrons are really large. I'd give the Warlocks embolden for improved staying power.
Conceal is eventually a waste since cover is almost everywhere these days.

not a bad list, i'd certainly run it and give a try, here's a list that i run as comparison with yours
163 - farseer - jetbike, singing spear, runes/witness, spirit stones, doom, guide
140 - autarch - jetbike, mandiblasters, laser lance, fusion gun
187 - howling banshees x10 - exarch, executioner, acrobatic
100 - vyper - missile launcher, holofield
105 - vyper - scatter laser, holofield, shuriken cannon
105 - vyper - scatter laser, holofield, shuriken cannon
152 - guardian jetbikes x6 - shuriken cannon x1
152 - guardian jetbikes x6 - shuriken cannon x1
162 - dire avengers x10 - exarch power weapon, shimmershield, bladestorm
107 - fire dragons x5 - exarch, firepike, tank hunter
150 - fire prism - holofield
165 - falcon - scatter laser, holofield
155 - wave serpent - brightlance, vectored engine
155 - wave serpent - brightlance, vectored engine
1998

i run the models i have and i only have 12 jetbikes, in the above list my jetbikes rely heavily on area terrain to hide behind while doing their best to sneak forwards so the farseer and autarch can take a heavy unit or a tank that is bothersome, but their main job is to take an enemy objective or two. the wave serpent are tank hunters while delivering troops into the enemy, the falcon and fire prism are heavy troop/ anti tank, and the vypers are troop hunters. the fireprism hangs back where it can keep watch over my objective, and still blast the enemy(and your right it absorbs a buttload of enemy firepower) the falcon and wave serpents run together, and if the wave serpents don't pop the enemy tanks then fire dragons will. as stated the vypers are meant to harrass the crap out of the enemy troops, and absorb fire from enemy tanks since they are in their faces faster than the rest of the units.

your list would run much the same way, jetbikes going after an objective, the fire prism guards your own objective, the falcons will contest the enemies. your falcons take on enemy troops and heavy units, the fire prism and wave serpent are anti tank. your striking scorpions can outflank the enemy, sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes not, based on how you roll the dice. arguably the runes of witnessing can be dropped, i rarely fail a psych test even without them but it is nice to have the option of discarding the highest roll out of three. then there's the enemy crap like the Tyranids Shadow in the warp that makes you discard the lowest, when rune and shadow go against each other, you take a psych test as normal. me personally i would keep the conceal power as trying to hide a unit of 12 jetbikes is really hard because as stated they do have a large footprint on the table, but he makes a point that embolden will help them a bit, but not enough in my opinion, it only gives +1 to their init and WS, Eldar are usually the faster unit in hth, and besides as i said the jetbikes main job is to take the bullet for the autarch and farseer.

there are differences between your list and mine, but the jobs of both lists are still essentially the same. as i said I'd try your list if i had more jetbikes, but i think though that your gonna want to run less bikes and more tanks and antitank, allthough it also depends mainly on how the people at your store run thier armies, my local hobby store the people run heavy on tanks. i can definately say this, against necrons w/ a monolith, your gonna want to change the list up so you can run 5 wraithguard w/ a warlock singing spear, so you can pop the monolith and get rid of it, it is your biggest threat on the board.

I'll preface this with I didn't take the time to read other people's walls of text, but a lot of bad info given out here.. alot.

#1 The guardian jetbike packs are WAY too large. GJB are terrible in CC and with that large of a pack your taking up a LOT of room on the board making it rather difficult to manuever. Split the packs into 4 reg, 2 cannon, 1 warlock with spear and embolden.

#2. Never take Fire Prisms are solos

#3. Never take Falcons unless you have a dedicated Guide to cast on them. for 170+ points BS3 is not making their pointcost worth it.

#4. Autauchs on jetbikes are terrible... yes terrible. If you manage to get a clean charge off they do nice things, but if you get charged or go on to further rounds of CC you are basically fighting with the ferocity of a GJB.

#5. You do not need CC units, it's not a must for Eldar. Taking a CC unit in a list this fast just forces you to slow down and think about their positioning.




An example list for what you are trying to accomplish would be...


Eldrad (goes with DA that hang back with the Prisms)

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent w/ EML

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent w/ EML

6 GJB w/ 2 S Cannon + Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden

6 GJB w/ 2 S Cannon + Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden

6 GJB w/ 2 S Cannon + Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden

3 GJB w/ 1 S Cannon + Warlock w/ Singing Spear and Embolden

5 DA
Wave Serpent w/ BL

Fire Prism w/ Holofields

Fire Prism w/ Holofields

Night Spinner w/ Holofields

Use eldrad to guide both your prisms if you need to use them individually. He can also be used to fortune up two jetbike packs or Serpents that are about to full out up the field. I'm not a fan of Seer Councils, so you won't ever see me recommend them, too many points for no power weapons and crippled if in range of a psychic hood.

HQ
160 Farseer- Runes of Warding- Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, Guide, Fortune

ELITES
202 10 Striking Scorpions- Exarch, Bitting Blade, Shadowstrike, Stalk

FAST ATTACK
115 - vyper - scatter laser, holofield, shuriken cannon, spirit stones

115 - vyper - scatter laser, holofield, shuriken cannon, spirit stones

TROOPS
167 10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
145 Waveserpent- Spirit Stones- Twin Linked Bright Lance

206 8 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
63 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, conceal

206 8 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
63 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, conceal

250 10 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
63 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, conceal


HEAVY SUPPORT

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

1991

...and I have no clue how to spend those other 9 points.

Here are my thoughts behind this list. I understood the too big of a footprint thing and shrunk it down, but I still wanted to keep it very Sam Hann in it so I kept an overly abundant amount of bikes.

I like the Dire Avengers, having one foot soldier unit will be helpful in a lot of instances

I like the falcons more than the prisms, that was a solid argument for them, although people had conflicting opinions on that. And I don't understand why a solo fireprism is bad, str. 9 is still very attractive.

I'm not positive if I want the striking scorpions or not, but I can see the logic behind it and it definitely will cause more chaos among the enemy, a more immediate target to distract the enemy or an awesome out flanker. Also they can hold there weight pretty well and probably win assault unless they're up against a beefed up unit for CC....

And I ditched the Autarch, hes an awesome bonus to my army, but as far as the dynamics of the whole force goes, hes jsut adding more of what I already have, his points were better spent somewhere else IMO.

The vypers are cool I took some of those unfortunately couldn't afford 3 but 2 will get the job done. They are also distracting for the enemy. My only question is why I gave them holo-fields because even with them it's still a 2 for a glance, correct me if I'm wrong though...

I also can't decide between conceal or enhance. Because saves are great but they already have a 3+ save. And if someone is shooting something that's insta kill into them then they're wasting their anti tank which is awesome for all the tanks I have. But then with enhance, correct me if I'm wrong, but EJB are going to lose in CC anyways, enhance is prolonging the inevitable. (from what I've concluded I like conceal better, but I'de like more opinions, or more explanations I guess).

OH AND am I missing something, how would Eldrad cast on two different units?

Jetbikes - The main reason you always take multiples of 3 is for the S Cannon. A standard jetbiker is meh, the key is the S6 shots which turn the decent anti infantry shooting into transport popping realm.

Bladestorm Dire Avengers - These need at the very least Doom, but preferably Doom and Guide otherwise they are an overcosted unit. Bladestorm with doom/guide is what takes then from decent anti-infantry into the notorious fear that they are. If you aren't shooting then they are in the tank, so if you aren't goign to be shooting with them often then you save the pile of points by taking the min amount. DA are also TERRIBLE in CC.

Falcons - Don't take scatter lasers, period. You are at that point intermingling S6 AP6 36" with S8 AP2 48". This means that if you are shooting at infantry your str 8 shots better served for medium transports go to waste while if you are shooting at meium transports the str 6 shots will be lucky to glance all while limiting yourself to the 36" range rather then 48". Your only real two choice here are BL or EML. EML you get the same str 8, same 48" range, plus you can fire in blast mode s4 allowing int to fire as a defensive weapon AKA fire both the s8 pulse and the s4 blast. BL you get another s8 ap2 for FNP/Termie hunting, but limit yourself to 36". With either of those two choice though you are keeping your role focused as Anti-Medium vehicle.

Fire Prism - Yes S9 is nice... till you scatter to the table next to you. We're Eldar, we can't afford a single missed shot from a 150+ point unit. If you have two you not only gain the ability to go twin linked, but gain the ability to do the AP1 shot and S6 AP3 for a large blast marine killer.

Prism vs Falcon - The major issue here is cost effectiveness and reliability. If you have guide on the Falcon it pulls ahead on anti tank, but the Prism gets str 9-10 shots which is better for those hard targets. The Prism also is doing blasts which is great for anti massed infantry.

Scorpions - You aren't fleet and you can't assault out of your vehicle if you move. What's this mean? If they enemy isn't 14" from your rear hatch at the start of your turn... you aren't assaulting anything. Also, you have no power weapons in the unit so while it's slaughter Orks/IG it'll tickle anything with FNP and 2/3+ armor.

Vypers - you are open topped so you always have a +1 to the dmg against you, thus negating the holofield's ability to keep the damage low because even the lowest is going to hurt. If you get hit by AP1 the very best a holofield will do for you is weapon destroyed on a pen. Now ask yourself if that is worth almost doubing the base cost of the vehicle. Keep um cheap and play them smart, Scatter Lasers and nothing else.

GJB Warlock - Enhance should really never be an option. Guardians are aweful in CC, +1 WS/I won't change that. Conceal, I can see a slight benefit to that but you will get more mileage out of embolden since a 5+ save.. really doesn't do much... ask harlies. Ldr 8 will run of the field easily and a single bombed morale test means you are moving 3D6 to your board edge and if your under 50% you aren't stopping. Protect that troop choice and point cost with Embolden for the low low price of 5 pts.

Eldrad - Guide, Doom, Fortune are not shooting attacks therefor can target different targets. If inside of a vehicle you can use guide/fortune on the unit inside with eldrad, his vehicle, or anything with 6" of the vehciles haul. Doom can be used on anything within 24" of the vehicles haul. Mind War and Eldrich storm you have to be out of the vehicle and then yes, you can only use one and on the same unit you are firing at.

HQ
210 Eldrad

FAST ATTACK
160 - 2 vypers - scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones

TROOPS
167 10 Dire Avengers- Exarch- 2 Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm
145 Waveserpent- Spirit Stones- Twin Linked Bright Lance

196 8 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden

228 9 Guardian Jetbikes- 3 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden

228 9 Guardian Jetbikes- 3 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden


HEAVY SUPPORT

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

160 Fire Prism- Holofields, Spirit Stones

1988

That was a pretty solid argument for the fire prisms, although a lot less shots, I totally agree with your point about the falcons and about how all there shots are really low quality, and definitely the twin linked is worth it. But the reason for the scatter laser on the falcon is so I can shoot its offensive weapon and the scatter laser, so although the BL is better, I can't shoot both the weapons at once.

Also I'de equal out my GJB for 2 or 3 squads of 9 but I just don't have the points to spare on the S cannons. And now that I've realized this about fortune, guide, and doom, I want Eldrad in my army.

Upsettingly I see your point with the striking scorpions, I usually play MEQs, IG, or Dark Eldar, although theres a diverse group. So I dropped them, because I'm the ork player on the bloc, but for IG they might be nice to take, I can always mod the list though.

I also fixed up the vypers, there good but this is because they're cheap, so cheap.

Also with Eldrad in my army, does it still stick to the fluff of being Sam Hann?

Looking much better, but if you want to go pure fluff then no Eldrad does not fit. The Autauch on Jetbike would be more fluff there, but you have to decide if you wanna be more viable or more fluffy.

You're a little mistaken on the "Fast" rules though. 5th edition if you are fast you can move 12" while firing one weapon s5+ and fire any defensive weapons which are classified as S4 or weaker. Moving 6" you can fire all weapons, but that is considered slow for Eldar. AKA if moving 6" you can fire the Pulse and Scatter laser, moving 6.01"-12" you can fire only the Pulse, and moving 12.01+ you can't fire anything.

Thanks I really appreciate the help, I also learned quiet a lot about the rules building tis too, O just had all the wrong numbers in my head and stuff. Ultimately i do have to stick with the fluff, but does that even allow for the dire avengers? f not then I will have to sacrifice some fluff.

Nothing that I know of from fluff states that Aspect Warriors are not allowed. They prefer Jetbikes and Vypers for most of their hit and run tactics, so shining spears would be fluff (though dear god they suck). If you wanted to stick heavily fluffy and still decently competitve I would prob recommend dropping the DA and Eldrad and picking up a seer council with Farseer worth about 500 pts.

Farseer Doom/Fortune, Both Runes, Jetbike, Stones, Spear
6x Jetlock (Embolden, Enhance, 2 Spears, 4 Destructors)

This will keep you at the same point range though it'll rape your wallet a bit.

My input for a jetbike/skimmer themed list.

(140) Autarch - jetbike, laser lance, mandiblasters, fusion gun

(185) Farseer - jetbike, runes of warding, runes of witnessing, fortune, doom, spirit stones

(205) 6 GJB - 2 cannons, warlock, embolden, spear

(205) 6 GJB - 2 cannons, warlock, embolden, spear

(129) 3 GJB - 1 cannon, warlock, embolden, spear

(129) 3 GJB - 1 cannon, warlock, embolden, spear

(242) 5 shining spear - exarch, shurican cannon, starlance, withdraw

(150) 2 Vypers - 2 EML + 2 shurican cannon

(150) 2 Vypers - 2 EML + 2 shurican cannon

(170) Fire prism - spirit stones, holofields, shurican cannon

(170) Fire prism - spirit stones, holofields, shurican cannon

(115) Night spinner - spirit stones

2000

Should work fine.
Just need finesse with it.

Everyone keeps using a nightspinner, isn't that apoc?

Nope white dwarf release a ersion that is "official" you can find the rules on gw's websiite

dayve110 wrote:(129) 3 GJB - 1 cannon, warlock, embolden, spear

I have a quick question. Are you referring to this unit as having 4 models total?

Reading the entry for GJB, the min size you can take is 3, and then it reads "The unit may be accompanied by a single jetbike-mounted warlock at +XX points"
That reads to me if you do the upgrade that you get a total of 4 models.

The question I have is the entry also says "Every third GJB may replace its cats for a cannon for +X points a model" If you take 5 GJB + 1 warlock, can you get 2 cannons? Can you put one of them on the warlock's bike to take advantage of the + ballistic skill?

labmouse42 wrote:

dayve110 wrote:(129) 3 GJB - 1 cannon, warlock, embolden, spear

I have a quick question. Are you referring to this unit as having 4 models total?

Reading the entry for GJB, the min size you can take is 3, and then it reads "The unit may be accompanied by a single jetbike-mounted warlock at +XX points"
That reads to me if you do the upgrade that you get a total of 4 models.

The question I have is the entry also says "Every third GJB may replace its cats for a cannon for +X points a model" If you take 5 GJB + 1 warlock, can you get 2 cannons? Can you put one of them on the warlock's bike to take advantage of the + ballistic skill?

It is 3 Guardian Bikes, one with cannon + Warlock, with embolden and a singing spear. You'll note that the points add up so that that is the only conclusion.

The warlock is NOT an upgrade for an existing guardian bike, so he does not count towards the 3 bikers you need to get the cannon.

This is why most people run either 3 gu+ 1 warlock or 6 gu+ 1 warlock, so they can get as many cannons as possible. Once you start taking more bikers then 7 the footprint starts to get unwieldy and its tougher to keep them out of unwanted assaults.

Correct, that unit is 4 models. 2 normal gjb, 1 scannon gjb, 1 jetlock. The warlock is an addon upgrade so it can't take the gjb upgrades nor can it count toward the 1 cannon per 3.

I like the Dire Avengers, having one foot soldier unit will be helpful in a lot of instances

I like the falcons more than the prisms, that was a solid argument for them, although people had conflicting opinions on that. And I don't understand why a solo fireprism is bad, str. 9 is still very attractive.

My blood is boiling and I don't quite know why. Lets see what we've got here. Ah, the OP was being horribly misguided by noobs until BlueDagger came along.

These two points have my interest though.

In what situation, given you know a lot, would Dire Avengers be helpful to your list? They effectively fulfil the role of jetbikes, but are less maneuverable even with their transport, in a list that is already jetbike heavy. They stand still, shoot lots, and die in CC. DAs are good in a less mobile list, where you have more numbers and can afford to lay down squads on infantry and get shooting, using the transport to cover their low armor. In a jetbike list, they will just be left behind somewhere and you won't get the best use out of them. If I'm missing some strange situation you've found DAs to be better than Jetbikes in a Jetbike list, let me know. Otherwise, ditch them and bring Fire Dragons. Put 5 in a falcon if you need it to be scoring, after that they have no part in this Saim Hann-esque list.

As for linking prisms, lets do some basic math-hammer. Linking 2 beams and shooting at a land raider.

Assuming you target the land raider's centre, you can safely scatter 2" in any direction and land the centre over the vehicle. BS4, so a safe hit is a 1/3 for the hit, or 2/3 * 15/36 that you will scatter and roll 6 or less on 2D6, hence scattering 2" or less and still hitting. Twin Linked lets you roll this twice. So we have 0.333 for the hit, and 0.277 for the low scatter, combined to a 0.61 chance to hit. After twin linking, you have at least an 85% chance to hit, and that is without taking into consideration scattering 3" diagonally and still hitting. Next up, S10 AP1 means we have a 1/6 to glance, 2/6 to penetrate. AP1 adds 1 to damage chart rolls, so we have a 1/6 to wreck it with the glance, and 1/2 to wreck or explode with the pens. That gives a 1/36 + 6/36 = 0.194, so roughly a 20% chance to blow it up, discounting all other results even though immobilising or disarming a land raider is very useful. This means that every turn, your twin linked fire prisms have about a 17% chance to destroy a land raider. Not very high? Its a land raider, we deal with it.

Lets compare that to 2 falcons. No guide, and lets give them Bright Lances to give them the best chance. 4 shots at S8 AP2, and 2 shots at S8 AP2 Lance. Well, BS3 means half the shots will hit, so we've hit with 3 S8 shots where one is a lance. 2 of these will glance on a 6, but never destroy it since they're not AP1, and the other will Pen 2/6, and then destroy it another 2/6 times, giving a 1/9 total once its hit. So, between two falcons with lances, they have an 11% chance to wreck a land raider in any given turn. They have more damage rolls potentially, and hence could shake/stun/damage it more often, but at the same time they will have a harder time breaking the armor at all. In fact, on average, the twin prisms get a glance 14% of the time and a pen 28%, where the falcons combined 6 chances to glance 3% of the time, and 2 chances to pen 6% of the time, giving an average of 18% and 12%. So, the prism fares a lot better in potential damage, even with only one shot.

This is where Fire Dragons come in. 5 dragons in a serpent pop up next to a land raider and unleash hell. 5 shots, BS4, 4/6 hit for a total of 3.333 average hits. S8 AP1, 2d6 penetration, you need to roll 6 to glance, 7+ to pen. 5/36 to glance and 21/36 pen. Because of AP1, glances destroy 1/6 and pens are 3/6. All together, this means each dragon has a 4/6 * (5/36 * 1/6 + 21/36 * 3/6) chance to blow up the raider. That magic numer ends up being just shy of 20% for EACH Fire Dragon. Yes, a single fire dragon has a better chance to destroy a land raider than twin linked prisms, before adding in close-call scatters as I noted before. However, the Fire Dragons come in a squad of 5 usually, and can also assault in subsequent turns if the raider is still around, bringing melta bombs to bear and effectively doubling their chance to wreck it every turn.

Discounting crazy ideas like War Walkers and Wraithlords for wrecking Land Raiders, those are Eldar's most notable options. Twin Linked lances on a wave serpent are better than a single falcon with a lance, but not as good as 2 falcons with lances. Fire Dragons are far and away the best tool for them, but they need to be within 6" and the best way to get them there is in a wave serpent, and guess what Land Raiders with twin linked lascannon sponsoons are really, really good at killing? Yeah. If I can't drop my fire dragons near their land raider, I normally just assault it with my jetbike council, because 33 attacks at S9 do wonders for popping land raiders, and pretty much anything else. BlueDagger may not like them, but they are a very nice way to deal with enemy armor if you're struggling to do so. Just watch out for psychic hoods and TEQs.

Just like your Seer Council should Avoid Psychic hoods like the plague, you should avoid posters like SebastionSynn just as avidly. He may seem to be giving useful advice, but there are some signs to look out for. The gross misuse and general lack of correct grammar and capitalization, and incorrectly spelling many words are a sure sign to take his words with a grain of salt. Suggesting you drop 5 warlocks with 4++ saves and 3+ saves, with witchblades and powers, in order to get regular GJBs in twice the number, is folly.

something else you may not have noticed but due to an error in the book, or maybe it's not, Warlocks still only have 5+ cover if they have enhance, and the 4+ invul save, guardian jetbikes have a 3+ armour save, and if needed the 5+ cover save from the warlock, so you also get a better save against most things that are going to shoot back at you.

He doesn't seem to know that the jetbikes grant the 3+ armor save, so the warlocks in the seer council DO have it, and he also recommends getting Conceal. Clearly he is either misinformed or the Devil, so we'll go with misinformed. He then recommends an Autarch, which BlueDagger sufficely squashed, so I'll leave that alone. I've already discussed falcons vs prisms, which he ended up on the wrong side of. However, his next point was to bring some CC. I thought it was a little rich to recommend dropping the jetbike seer council, and then pick up some CC squads on foot, but lets move on. He did successfully note that DAs are bad in CC, but that's where the good ends.

I'll sum it up quickly. Banshees get transports or they die. They cost more than Space Marines, but are as tough as Guardsmen. If you let them run 6+D6" a turn, they're going to get nowhere fast except on an express trip back to the craftworld in spirit stone form. And an executioner is not the way to fix their low strength, the farseer power Doom is. If you can't land a doom on the squad they're assaulting, then just hope for the best. Even at S3, they're not bad at taking our MEQs and TEQs, but wasted on GEQs. Scorpions are more valid on foot, but don't move quickly without a transport either. 3+ saves will let them last longer than Banshees, and their Infiltrate/Outflank will let them get into combat quicker than other options. However, no power weapons means they're worse than assault marines 1v1, and more expensive, without jetpacks. For their cost, if you can't get them into combat with shooty GEQs then they're not going to earn their points back. I dislike Scorpions, even though they have 3A each, but if I used them I would reserve them and hope they get a nice outflank. Harlequins are the best Eldar has as far as foot CC troops go, mainly due to the Shadowseer, and rending is very cool. Raptor1313 goes into detail more in his blog entry about it. However, since we're rocking a fast Jetbike army, we really don't need much CC. The seer council, if you take it, is a big mean fighting machine in CC and that is all you will ever need in an army as mobile as you plan.

In his list, he takes 20 point vectored engines on the lance serpents, which I really don't see the point of. You have a chance to turn that 1/6 chance of being destroyed if you moved flat out into a standard immobilize, turning your transport into a 165 point turret. He also puts the Fire Dragons (the most important "get them in there and shoot" unit) into the Falcon (the most important "move 6" and fire all weapons), so if his opponent pops the falcon on turn 1, his only anti-tank is 2 transports that won't shoot due to moving flat out, and a squad of T3 4+ save melta troops on the other side of the battlefield. Oh yeah, and he took Holofields on 2 vypers. Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't listen to this guy. I'm just saying... maybe you should read it carefully, and perhaps use some of his advice as examples of exactly what not to do?

Just listen to BlueDagger more and you'll be fine. If you want to run a Seer Council, go for it, and make sure they're on bikes. If you're scared of Land Raiders and other big scary metal behemoths, run with Fire Dragons in a minimum cost wave serpent, and creep along cover until you can rush 24" out and blow that gak up in turn 2-3. If you lack other anti tank, take the Fire Dragons + Transport twice. Guardian Jetbikes should usually be taken in Squads of 6 + warlock. This means you can have 2 cannons, embolden and a singing spear, without making the squad too large. If you run squads of 3 + warlock, you're spending a lot of points on warlocks and not many on cannons, and they're more vulnerable to failing their emboldened morale check and never regrouping. Vypers should be kept to minimum cost - they're armor 10 all round and open topped, they're going to die to bolter fire and no amount of holo fields, vectored engines or spirit stones will change that. BlueDagger says run with Scatter Lasers, I personally prefer EML+Cannon, but either is nice. Try to keep them individual, not in squadrons, if the FOC allows it. If you're using Jetbikes, your troops will be very mobile and, by Eldar standards, tough, so you won't need squads like DAs to camp objectives. Just turbo boost to objectives near the end of the game. On that note, prisms are better than falcons in this list for a number of reasons, both in their power when twin linked (5" blast that wounds MEQs on 2+ and ignores their 3+ save? Twin linked? Yes please) and the fact that you don't need the falcons as transports (or dire-avenger campers to make them scoring tanks).

From your recent list, drop the DAs to 5 and put them in the falcon, or drop them completely. You don't need more fast-moving troops with shuriken weaponry in this army. You have 29 jetbike models across 3 squads, feel free to lighten it up down to 4 squads of 7 (4 standard, 2 cannon, 1 warlock), you'll have the points after dropping the DAs down. Split the vypers into 2 separate FA choices, so they're not bound to squadron rules. If you drop the DAs and their transport completely, throw in 2 5-man Fire Dragon squads with min cost (100 point) serpents, you'd be on 1877 points with room to buff up those GJB squads, or get that seer council that I know you secretly want. Eldrad is super sexy, but is 385 points worth it for a Falcon with guide? Sure, he can fortune/guide others from inside, but then you'd need the falcon to stay within 6" of your army, and that means its not shooting. Dropping Eldrad would bring your list to 1667, bring the 3 GJB squads down to 4/2/1 at 205 points per squad means you're down to 1630. Drop the spirit stones from the vypers and prisms (a prism that can't shoot is about as good as a prism that can't move or shoot) and you're down to 1590, with 410 to burn on HQ and a retinue. That's a farseer and 4 warlocks in a jetbike seer council, or a farseer with jetbike, another 4/2/1 GJB squad with points to spare for an extra fire dragon in each squad. If you dropped a Fire Dragon + Transport, you could use a seer council with 8 warlocks and all good powers to accompany your farseer, and drop 27 attacks in melee on the charge with 4 heavy flamers and witchblades. With doom. And 3+/4++ saves with fortune. There are a lot of choices to fine-tune your list, it just depends on what you need to deal with the armies you're facing.

I hate to say it, after what you said in the OP, but make up a few lists, get a friend with a nice balanced army for the afternoon, and run a few different games and proxy in the different units. Try one with a big seer council, another with 2 lots of Fire Dragons, another with Eldrad and DAs in a serpent, and just find what you like the best. Play around with Jetbike squad size - are the 10-man squads too big? Do you play with much terrain? Are the 7 man squads too big? When your opponents deploy, do you usually see 16 tanks, 200 infantry, or something in between? How would you deal with them if you have each army list? What does each unit specialize at, and how can you make sure it will be in a position to do what its designed to do?

Good luck, I'll check this thread but I'm mostly a lurker, as my post count suggests.

"or get that seer council that I know you secretly want."

Out of everything, this is arguably the most impressive part of your post

friend with a nice balanced army for the afternoon, and run a few different games and proxy in the different units.

I'm hoping to do this on Saturday

Well heres what your suggestions led too, and they all had really solid advise behind them. I agreed with you on pretty much every point, but being new to Eldar I'm pretty open anyways.... Although I just didn't have points for the Fire Dragons with a wave serpent. And IMO I already have so much anti tank from all the S cannons, my Heavys and my Fast Attacks. Although not equally as efficiently, my whole army has anit tank capability. Also in terms of kill points the firdragons most certainly kill a tank, but after most certainly will get shot to bitz, so although a bit disapointed, I feel okay not using them. In short, they're overkill and borderline suicidal.

HQ
160 Farseer- Runes of Warding- Spirit Stones, Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, Guide, Fortune

335 6 Warlocks- 4 Destructor, Embolden, Enhance, Witchblades, Eldar jetbikes (1 with nothing)
495


FAST ATTACK
75 - 1 Vyper - EML, shuriken cannon

75 - 1 Vyper - EML, shuriken cannon
150

TROOPS
60 5 Dire Avengers

152 6 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden

152 6 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden

152 6 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden

152 6 Guardian Jetbikes- 2 Shuriken Cannons
53 Warlock- Eldar Jetbike, Singingspear, embolden
880

HEAVY SUPPORT

175 Falcon- Scatter Laser, Holofields, Spirit Stones

150 Fire Prism- Holofields

150 Fire Prism- Holofields
475

2000


Theres probably a lot I think but haven't said, I've spent a while thinking about this.
Well my questions now, I most commonly play- Chaos, Dark Eldar, and IG. I feel confident I could cripple an of these armies mobility, although Dark Eldar just scare me because its so hard to stay out of their assault range. SO the only mystery to me is how this would fair against IG.
And when is it smart to start with your whole army undeployed, as is notorious of Saim Hann?

TehScat wrote:Assuming you target the land raider's centre, .... This means that every turn, your twin linked fire prisms have about a 17% chance to destroy a land raider. Not very high? Its a land raider, we deal with it.

My simhammer puts it at a ~90.5% of hitting. To keep things in perspective, a MM has ~20.64% of destroying that same LR up close. For your ~230 points its a great gun.

TehScat wrote:Lets compare that to 2 falcons. ..... So, the prism fares a lot better in potential damage, even with only one shot.

Here we are comparing appleas to oranges. A falcon is designed to be highly effective vs. medium armor, not heavy armor. That prism shot vs AV 12 compared to 2 falcons vs AV 12 shows much higher rates of returns on the falcons.

Sure fire prisms are great vs. AV 14 -- but how many AV 14 vehicles do we find on the board? In my FLGS, I see a lot less now a days -- mostly just 'Russ which have an AV 13 on the side. I don't see many LRs any more as the current fad are stormravens and BA. Given the current fail state of Necrons I never see monoliths any more (that will change after the new Necron codex), but for today 3 falcons serves me better than 3 prisms.

TehScat wrote:Guardian Jetbikes should usually be taken in Squads of 6 + warlock.

Fielding a squad of 7 also helps with the break tests. You need to lose 2 before you need to start making break tests. If you field them in squads of 4, then you will be making break tests every time you lose a model. Even with embolden, failures will be made.

The nice thing about 1 squad like this is that they can spend the entire game turbo-boosting around they find cover to shoot the cannons from (using the eldar jetbike to move out of site during assault phases) They can also tank hunt with the warlock on the back lines - great for killing slow targets like manticores.

During turns 5 and 6 they can also be used to grab objectives. This lets you maximize your firepower by not forcing you to keep a unit on top of the objective until the end of the game -- a luxury that slow armies do not have.

Lastly, sick article, thanks.

between Blue Dagger (as usual) and Teh Scat, all my usual talking points have been primarily covered! ack!

Anyway, if you are going to do a seer council, DO a seer council! What I mean by this is lots of warlocks. Really you are going to want at least 7 to really soak up fire power and get your volume of attacks up. Drop the vypers to afford moar Warlocks. They don't even need upgrades, just 45 point warlocks to add bodies to the squad.

Don't ever run bladestorm on a 5 man dire avenger squad. Bladestorm is a force multiplier if you don't have any forces to multiply all you are doing is wasting a colossal amount of points. if you are just making a falcon scoring, no upgrades should be necessary.

Missile launcher is a better wargear option on the falcon than a scatter laser. it adds to your s8 shooting. Which is crucial.

Honestly I would drop your falcon entirely, you have 4 solid troop squads in the form of your GJB, and don't have your HQ around guiding your falcon. In light of this I'd just drop the avengers entirely, swap the Falcon out for either another prism or a nightspinner (depending on what you are feeling like), and use the leftover points on- you guessed it- moar warlocks.

To throw my personal experiances out there as well, I actually rarely shoot my prisms and vehicles lol and even less so with combined beams. Usually if I'm firing at vehicles it's as a S9 tl blast, nothing says loving like a 60" las cannon that is more reliable in hitting

Most of the time however I am using either the smal blast to slaughter clumped up marines or link large blast to evaporate whole squads.

I usually have at a minimum 4-5 serpents so between those and fire dragons the anti tank is pretty well taken care of.

On the jetbikes, it's rare to see me without at least 1-2 4man setups. I prefer the 4man to 7man due to point cost and the ease of hiding/manuevering the smaller footprint. With embolden, morale tests are rarely an issue

I think the 2 prisms and 1 Falcon are a good ratio for the amount of high AV and Mid AV I see now a days.

Although I don't know where to take the points from to enlarge my seer council (I did a bit a;ready), I'de like at least 2 vypers. But I do agree with cutting blade storm. Actually I took it a step further, and just made them the bare minimum, their whole purpose is to make a scoring falcon, so why be pricier than that? The exarch was just a waste of points anyways considering its a squad of 5 guys :S, it won't do much.

As well as EMLs on the vypers, but that scares me because they scatter, and scatter lasers (ironically) don't.

I've edited the last list I posted to fit these changes.

Eml is a s8 single shot OR a s4 blast. With a falcon you should mainly be moving 6"and firing 3 s8 single target shots which is why guide is needed for them so much to ensure their target dies.

Emls on vypers use yourr max range to limit return fire and pick off stuff. Pricey for bs3 on a 55base open topped model though

EMLs on Vypers are interesting. I personally run with my Vypers as EML + Cannons, because I can move 12" and shoot my S8 missiles as I move across the map, and later I can still move 12" and shoot the cannon AND the plasma missile (since S4 is defensive). It gives Vypers a lot of Dakka for their points cost, even if they are extremely vulnerable.

Normally my Vypers are screened by jetbikes, so they get a cover save, and every shot that goes into my Vypers is a shot that isn't hitting my prisms or seer council, so even if they kill them I'm not too bothered. My 2 prisms cost more than my 3 vypers, and the prisms only get 1-2 shots per turn!

I still don't have a preferred load out for my falcons. Every time I take EMLs, they miss and I get frustrated, but every time I take scatter lasers, I only get in range to use it properly by turn 3, and if I'm aiming at AV12 then it feels like a waste.

I find that my Seer Council rarely takes casualties before they reach CC, simply because I play them down a flank in heavy cover and they're either completely out of line of sight, or only in range of half their army, before 3+/4++ with fortune comes into play.

I like your list as it is now. If you come up against guard with a squadron of russes you're in trouble, but for standard transport spam you have enough anti tank. Play with it, and if you feel something is missing, we'll see what we can do.