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I just opened a new thread purely for this topic alone as it has a lot of different angels to it.

First off on page: 22
Models firing out of area terrain can fire up to 2" out of the terrain without conferring a cover save.

My question is how does this not apply when flipped?

A model can fire 2" out of area terrain without giving cover, if it fires 3" then the targets gets a cover save.

However, A model standing on the outside of the terrain can shoot through 10" of area terrain and not give a cover save to model on the other side. (assuming their is not two element like tree's or two units that it is firing in-between)


Isn't this kind of contradicting? How are the standards change if you walk forward 2" and turn around to shoot? Does the cover somehow vanish into thin air?

BEcause it is a basic error of logic to do so.

A implies B does NOT automatically mean B implies A. All cats are mammals but not all mammals are cats.

Being more than 2" into area terrain does NOT autoamtically confer a cover save, as I stated at least twice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BEcause it is a basic error of logic to do so.

A implies B does NOT automatically mean B implies A. All cats are mammals but not all mammals are cats.

Being more than 2" into area terrain does NOT autoamtically confer a cover save, as I stated at least twice.

lol i love your example even though its far from the same situation. Ok to counter your argument. That same model instead of firing 3" out of the terrain walks back 6" to get out of the back side of the terrain. That way it still firing the same dam direction but because it stepped back those few extra inchs he can completely ignore it?

Think of it like this, lets take a heavily wooded area. the 2" would relate to around 6 ft. Now, on the board, we see two little trees on that area terrain, but in RL, there would be alot of trees, saplings, bushes, branches, etc. making it heavily wooded. Now if you are within the 2" of the front, you would have the majority of the branches out of your way, and would be able to hide behind the big thick tree trunk for protection. This is why standing in/behind the cover gives you the save. However, once you pass about 6 ft into the cover, the branches and bushes start getting in your way of seeing out of the woods clearly. So after about 6 ft or so, now there are big, leafy branches hanging in the way, tall bushes and little saplings blocking your view, making it more difficult for you to see the enemy out in the open. Hence the 2" or less no cover, over 2", cover.

Hope that give you a bit of a real world idea on why.

Galador wrote:Think of it like this, lets take a heavily wooded area. the 2" would relate to around 6 ft. Now, on the board, we see two little trees on that area terrain, but in RL, there would be alot of trees, saplings, bushes, branches, etc. making it heavily wooded. Now if you are within the 2" of the front, you would have the majority of the branches out of your way, and would be able to hide behind the big thick tree trunk for protection. This is why standing in/behind the cover gives you the save. However, once you pass about 6 ft into the cover, the branches and bushes start getting in your way of seeing out of the woods clearly. So after about 6 ft or so, now there are big, leafy branches hanging in the way, tall bushes and little saplings blocking your view, making it more difficult for you to see the enemy out in the open. Hence the 2" or less no cover, over 2", cover.

Hope that give you a bit of a real world idea on why.

Actually that supports my argument. If that model walks out of the backside of the terrain and fires through it. Then its target gets no cover save. However, Had he remained even 1" in the cover the model he would be shooting at would then get cover. Hence the double standard.

TK - I'm really now confused as to what you are arguing.

Is your contention this?

"If you are more than 2" into Area Terrain you automatically give a cover save"

If so, this contention is WRONG.

Your "counter" does not, actually, counter the argument. At all.

If the model is not in the area terrain, but firing "through" the terrain, you see if it gives the opposing unit a cover save by following the rules for firing through area terrain - i.e. has to be between two elements of the terrain to give a cover save. If you are IN the area terrain, and more than 2" in, you STILL are fiiring "through" the terrain, so you AGAIN follow the same rules - and if you are firing between two elements you give a cover save, if you are not firing between two elements you are not.

If you dont understand that A implies B does NOT mean that B implies A (i.e. you cannot logically negate a statement and expect it to remain true) then have a quick look online and see that it is a common mistake people make.

The example is meant to show you that your "inversion logic" leads to absurd results.

BRB page 21 & 22 covers all examples we are talking about. Firing out of terrain: 2" or less unobstructed more that 2" cover save allowed. Firing at unit in terrain: if model has even partial base in terrain area it gets cover save and finally:

Firing throu units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit,the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

As said, there is no contradiction. If you're firing out of >2" of area, or ACROSS area, AND (in either case) between two raised elements, you confer a cover save to the target unit.

If you are shooting ACROSS area, but OUTSIDE the bounds of any raised elements, you do not grant the target a cover save. You're shooting across the edge of the terrain, not through the "thick" middle of it.

There's no contradiction here.

Ok here is a picture representing it. Say the paper is area terrain. The veteran model is just a stand in for this image. The veteran is 3" into the terrain therefore according to firing out of cover pg 22 of the rulebook. The gaunt receives cover.

The Veteran is now outside of the cover but still firing through area terrain in this case 12" of area terrain. My argument is why does the model now get no cover save?


I know the whole tree's thing. Go down one more paragraph and you will be in the right section that im talking about.

What type of terrain is it representing?

Tomb King, I believe the source of your confusion is based on misreading the fourth bullet point (fifth paragraph) on page 22 as if it were independent of the one above it.

That paragraph ("Firing out of Area Terrain") does NOT say that if you're more than 2" deep into terrain (like the model in your first photo), the target unit gets a cover save.

It says that if you're 2" or LESS from the edge, the enemy DOESN'T get the cover save they otherwise would for shooting between two raised elements. Paragraph 5 just creates an exception to the rule in paragraph 4.

Mannahnin wrote:Tomb King, I believe the source of your confusion is based on misreading the fourth bullet point (fifth paragraph) on page 22 as if it were independent of the one above it.

That paragraph ("Firing out of Area Terrain") does NOT say that if you're more than 2" deep into terrain (like the model in your first photo), the target unit gets a cover save.

It says that if you're 2" or LESS from the edge, the enemy DOESN'T get the cover save they otherwise would for shooting between two raised elements. Paragraph 5 just creates an exception to the rule in paragraph 4.

Have always seen it played that if a model is more then 2" in cover then their target gets a cover save and I have been to multiple cons and even through 2nd levels of ard boyz and not one played it differently. It is too vague to say that it doesn't give a cover save when firing out of terrain more then 2".

You're misreading it. Look at it again.

I made the same mistake, and went to the Ard Boyz finals twice, and only recently had my mistake explained to me. It's kind of a confusing rule.

You are (and I was) reading it backwards.

depending on what the paper is representing in the second photo, the nid would get cover and so would the guardsman. If it is a crater, then neither get cover until one is in terrain, as the cover save from a crater is supposed to represent the person in the terrain lying in the bowl to shoot/hiding behind the wreckage left from the exploded vehicle.

For woods, that paper would have definitely had at least 2 trees on it, which would have given both units cover. For ruins, they more than likely couldn't even have fired at each other cause something would have blocked LOS.


That explain it better?

Alright thanks. I knew I had to be reading wrong somehow. Because it wouldnt make sense to have a double standard of shooting if shooting the same target and increasing the amount of something that would give cover would take it away. Thanks for clearing it up and being patient.

not a problem, thats what the forums are for is to help clarify. They are great cause then you get alot of different peoples interpretations instead of just the people at your FLGS, who may also see it in a different way than you or the forum posters. This way, you can see something from multiple different angles and decide which seems to work the best for everyone!!