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I have been on a 40k sabbatical for basically the past year but I am looking to bust out my smurfs again. With the release of SW, Nids, BA, and DE, what do competitive C:SM lists look like these days?

AFAIK the three things that C:SM does better than other marine versions is all-bike lists, Vulkan-lists with loads of melta and flamers, and scoring sternguard lists with Kantor. Sternguard vets are more or less the ace unit in the codex, with razorbacks and librarians as good runner-ups. That's all I know I'm afraid...

There are 3 builds of C:SM that people consider viable
Vulcan Lists
These lists use the special character Vulcan, and TL MM and flamers still can do lots of good on the table.
These lists use kamazie speeders (MM/HF) speeders very well, in addition to MM attack bikes.
These lists have an advantage with TH/SS termies, especially in a redeemer -- but they all do the job well.

Shrike Lists
These lists utilize Raven Guard to give all our marines fleet.
Shrike can take 10 TH/SS termies and give them inflitrate and fleet. This is very difficult to deal and will draw all your opponents attention.
Shrike also works well with drop pod armies as it really brings the fight to the enemy. They are forced to deal with termies, then sternguard start dropping on top of them with combi-weapons and special ammo.

Bike Lists
Bike armies utilize bikes as troops by taking a SM Captain.
I play this army and I utilize 3 or 4 small bike squads as my troops -- each with 2 special weapons and 1 attack bike. This replaces one of the lackluster units in C:SM (TAQ squads) and replaces it with a very powerful shooting squad.
To support this, utilize lots of ranged dreads, preads, and typhoons. This takes out the transports at range, then your bikes do the rest of the work.

There are a number of things in the C:SM codex that people still consider top-notch.
Null Zone
This one power shuts down demon armies, and puts a huge crimp on many armies. It means that TH/SS termies go from saving 66.6% of the time vs. AP2 weapons to saving on 45% of the time!

TH/SS
These termies are still considered one of the best units out there for the cost. Just load them up in a LR and its hard to go wrong.

Sternguard
Great overall units. Its hard to go wrong with them.

So SM still can be competitive with a typical Vulkan list with TH/SS Termies and a decent amount of shooting? I wouldnt need to convert to Razorspam or other MSU style lists?

You don't need a special character.

A mechanized marine list built around units of 10 marines in rhinos or units of 5 in razorbacks with maxed out vehicle firepower in the elite/heavy/fast slot is also very competitive without Vulkan.

Sample

If you're a fan of land raiders and terminators, versions of this list that trim back on some firepower to add the big boys are also widespread and effective.

I find this one is pretty good, Kirby posted over at 3++ and it rocks face:

Libby
-nullzone avenger
3 Rifleman dreads
3 Typhoons
3 Dakka Preds
2 Tacts of 5 marines (sgt w/combi flamer) in a Razorback
2 Tacts of 10 marines (melta, Multimelta, sgt w/combi flamer) in a rhino

Besides that the bike list is just brutal especially if you master the use of combat tactics

With the right build, you can still do a mean and nasty C:SM list.

There is someone on fhe forums who links his Dreadnought Drop pod/Vulkan list that seems to do very well.

Zinging down 3 Ironclad Dreads on top of turn 1 in the enemy's flank or face (the other 2 are regular dakka Dreads) really sets the tone for how the game is played.

The list is Troop light (1 full Tac squad and a combat of scouts), but it seems to get the job done as it balances the pod attack with forces already on the field.

I run a bland list of 2 tac squads, outflanking scouts, a LR with Libra and Assault Termies a Pred and a razorback with Sternguard, and despite being a little weaker than Blood Angels or Space Wolves, they do reasonably well

I would disagree on the not going wrong with sternguard. They are pretty good, but when they cost as much and more than a grey knight they better be. Which is where people go wrong with them. Points bloat on a unit not any more resilient than tactical marine. They have their place, but people tend to use them as a panacea for their list, leaning too hard on them. Which is my next point, pedro lists aren't as good as some people think. I've played against them a number of times, and honestly the fact that he makes sternguard scoring just makes people try to use them for too many roles. His bubble of combat buff makes bad CC units (sternguard, tacs) mediocre, and the good CC units (termies) don't need it.

another way C: SM does good with is mobile Gunline.


the idea is Tactical squads with the super cheap lascannons they have, in Rhinos or Razorbacks,

Rifleman Dreadnoughts,

Tactical Terminators with Clyclone missile launchers,

Landspeeder Typhoons,

and a MOTF for an HQ(to allow Heavy Support Dreds)

possably some counter assault units like an Assault Terminator squad or an Iclad dreadnought to engage enemy assault units.


it isn't as shooty(volume) as other armies, but it has accuracy and mobility(something other Gunlines usually don't have)

Mobile gunline is done better with blood angels imo.

I like 1st and 10th (scouts and terminators), but blood angels and shrike dothat build better.

notabot187 wrote:I would disagree on the not going wrong with sternguard. They are pretty good, but when they cost as much and more than a grey knight they better be. Which is where people go wrong with them. Points bloat on a unit not any more resilient than tactical marine. They have their place, but people tend to use them as a panacea for their list, leaning too hard on them. Which is my next point, pedro lists aren't as good as some people think. I've played against them a number of times, and honestly the fact that he makes sternguard scoring just makes people try to use them for too many roles. His bubble of combat buff makes bad CC units (sternguard, tacs) mediocre, and the good CC units (termies) don't need it.

Sterngard in a support role are awesome. The key here is the discount to two hw choices. Also take into account that they are by default very good anti-personnel units due to the bolters.
Personnally, if you are not going to overload the elite choices. 3 x sterngard with 2 ML or 2 Plasma Cannon or even 2 bolters. It will be cheaper than an equivalent devastator squad. Then if you take Pedro,
you have scoring firepower units.

I'll echo what's been said here by the others. Unless you are doing the Captain led bike army, MoTF Dread bash or a special character list then all the other codexes do everything you have left better.

BA do the mobile gun line better due to fast vehicles.
BA and SW do HtH combat better
BA do all deep striking better
DA do terminator lists better
SW do static gunline better
BA and SW do MSU razor spam better and they both have better troop choices.

I'm working on a 1500 point Vanilla list ATM for a tourny that is basically Librarian, 2xtactical squads + support, and honestly it's not working very well. I just look at the other dexes and realize I could get more, or better, for less.

What Codex Marines do best is playing as a reactive army.

Most of their builds will center around a Special Character of some sort and a Null Zone Librarian. There are other good HQ options, such as a Bike captian and a Master of the Forge, but those are for specific options.

However, there are no blatantly bad choices in codex marines, as long as you know how to use them right, and some choices are easier to use then others.

To address some of the points in this thread, I will steal Carnage43 points:

BA do the mobile gun line better due to fast vehicles - This is true, but Codex Marines have better access to entrenched shooting. With the greater access to boister defenses, Codex Marines can provide a more defensable fire base.

BA and SW do HtH combat better - Yes and no. Codex Marines still have the cheapest TH/SS terminators in the game, and lesser used options like Command Squads, bike Command Squads, all have their place. The difference is that Blood Angels and Space Wolves have the best aggressive assault options. Space Marines are more about diminishing with shooting then counter assaulting.

BA do all deep striking better - True, but as I said, as a reactive army, we don't need all Deep Striking like an aggressive army like Blood Angels needs.

DA do terminator lists better - Not necessarily. They do shooty Terminators better to be sure, but Codex Marines can still field cheaper TH/SS Terminators, and overall have a better fire support base then DA can field.

SW do static gunline better - Not necessarily. Long Fangs are the only thing that gives them that distinction. Between Devestators, Combat Squaded Tacticals, Elite Rifleman Dreads, Dakka Preds, and Thunderfire Cannons, on top of Boister Defenses, I would argue that we have the better gun line. Long Fangs are great and cheap, but they are a support unit only that can still fall fairly quickly to DE and IG shooting. C:SM can stick around longer, and put out a fair amount of firepower, backed by our excellent counter charge units, and you start to see why I make the claim that they are a reactive army.

BA and SW do MSU razor spam better and they both have better troop choices - Space Wolves has the better troop choice, no doubt about that. Blood Angels, not so much. They get a slightly more customizable , troop Assault Marine Squad, which yes, can do Razorback spam with fast vehicles, but are fairly worthless when they lose their ride. Space Marines still have the ability to field combat squadable Tactical Marines which get a free heavy weapon that can split off and support a gun line.

I'm working on a 1500 point Vanilla list ATM for a tourny that is basically Librarian, 2xtactical squads + support, and honestly it's not working very well. I just look at the other dexes and realize I could get more, or better, for less.

How about:

Space Marine Librarian w/ Null Zone, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield = 140

5 Assault Terminators w/ TH/SS = 200
in Land Raider w/ MM, EA = 275

Rifleman Dread = 125

10 Tactical Marines w/ MG, ML in Rhino = 210

10 Tactical Marines w/ MG, ML in Rhino = 210

5 Devestators w/ 4 ML = 150

Predator w/ Heavy Bolters = 85

Thunderfire Cannon = 100


I came up with that in 5 minutes, and though it isn't the most optimized list, it still has a massive amount of shooting that can handle all types of armies, and then punch people in the face with Thunderhammers when they get to close.

Codex Space Marines is still an awesome well balanced army.

Heres what I use for 1850:

Lysander-200pts
5x TH/SS Terminators, Redeemer MM EA-465pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Rhino, dozer- 225pts
10x Marines, Missile, Melta, Combimelta, Rhino, dozer- 225pts
2x Typhoons- 180pts
2x Typhoons- 180pts
Vindicator siege shield- 125pts
Vindicator siege shield- 125pts
Vindicator siege shield- 125pts

I also use variations with predators, and Null zone Terminator libby instead of lysander.

My favorite part of the C:SM is the ability to field a TH/SS Land raider bomb infront of a solid shooting core. The TH/SS termies with its HQ (libby, vulkan, lysander) can tackle pretty much anything in the game. Lysander is a freaking steal for 200pts considering he has 4 eternal warrior 2+/3++ wounds, and has str 10 ap 1. Not many codexes have that kind of bang for their buck, except maybe mephiston.

I'm currently running a SM gunline, and it does pretty well. Here is my list:

1750

Librarian: avenger, nullzone

Dred: TLLC/ML
5 TH/SS termies in crusader

10 tac marines, flamer, ML, razorback w/ TLPG/LC
10 tac marines, flamer, ML, razorback w/ TLPG/LC
10 tac marines, flamer, ML, razorback w/ TLPG/LC

5 Devastators, 4 ML
Predator w/ AC/HB
Predator w/ AC/HB

6 squads that can score (combat squadrons) 3 heavy armor vehicles, 4 transports, 1 dred, 3 TLPG, 9 MLs, 4 LCs, 2 Auto cannons, 4 HBs, 3 flamers, plenty of bolters, librarian, and the cargo and torrent of fire the crusader represents.

Is it as mobile as BA? no, does it pack the ML punch of SWs? no. But it does have the weapons to take anybody on, and can do quite well in objective missions, and with the heavy armor can protect the squishy parts during KP missions. It is a pretty balanced army, with none of the spam (other than troops, but 3 is hardly spam when you only have 2 choices) that you often see in the other marines.

I think the thing that makes codex space marines great is that it isn't specialized.

Every unit in that book is usable in some sort of list, and the list variety is huge.

With C:SM you can build any list you want, and it will be a decent list.

Many of the suggestions we have seen:
Vulkan
Shrike+sternguard
TH/SS termies
Librarians+anything
All bike armies
Walking gunline
MoTF+6 dreads

Just start throwing together lists, and I'm sure you will come out with one that you like, and that will be competitive.

Good post Mahu, I agree with most of your points, and don't feel like re-debating the last couple.

Space Marine Librarian w/ Null Zone, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield = 140
5 Assault Terminators w/ TH/SS = 200
in Land Raider w/ MM, EA = 275
Rifleman Dread = 125
10 Tactical Marines w/ MG, ML in Rhino = 210
10 Tactical Marines w/ MG, ML in Rhino = 210
5 Devestators w/ 4 ML = 150
Predator w/ Heavy Bolters = 85
Thunderfire Cannon = 100

I have 3000+ points of mairnes, and;

Dont have any TH/SS termies, mine have LCs as a relic from 3rd edition. Trolling Ebay daily looking for a cheap TH/SS set to fix this.
My LR is a Redeemer, as i think the stock LR is garbage as an assault transport (Crusader being the best, then redeemer, then stock)
I have 3 Dreads, and no rifleman. Assault cannon/DCCW, MM/DCCW and Ironclad. Pain to convert one and paying FW for the arms is expensive. It's on my list of things to do, but WAY down the list.
The tactical squads are my troop choices exactly
Devastators. I have the models for this, but vanilla devas are pretty sad. Pred with lascannon sponsons is 30 points cheaper and AT LEAST as effective, better IMO.
Pred with heavy bolters. Anti-infantry platform/AV13 staturation in a list that has no other AV13 and a ton of anti-infantry...pass. Also, don't have a model and plan on never getting one.
TF cannon. Meh. You clearly like it for the bolster defenses, which is the most unbelievably random ability ever, but it's unimpressive against anything outside of massed infantry, which is not what I'm concerned about ATM. Also, don't have the model.

The List i wanna play ideally is;

140 Librarian, SS/TDA, Vortex/Nullzone
440 5 TH/SS Termies, in LR Redeemer
420 2x10 Tacticals, MG/ML, in rhinos
150 3 Attack bikes, MM
120 Predator, lascannon sponsons
120 Predator, lascannon sponsons
115 Vindicator
--------
1505...tweak 5 points out of the list somewhere. Issues are; I need to re-arm my termies, and purchase a second predator.

Looking at the list. If I used the BA dex, I'd switch the tacticals for 6 man assault squads with melta-guns in fast las/plas razor backs, ditch a pred and the librarian and get Mephiston. Also has the advantage of not needing any modeling work/new purchases on my part.

Mephiston
5 LC termies in LR redeemer
Sang priest
2x5 man assault marines in las/plas razor backs, with melta-gun
3 Attack bikes
Predator, lascannon sponsons
Vindicator

A friend of mine and I won a local doubles tournament with C:SM back in October. We had some strange stuff cause we weren’t planning on playing and just used models we had with us.

I think the 1k pt lists went something like this

Pedro
6 ish Sternguard (No upgrades)
Tac w/ Melta/Lascannon/Power Weapon & Rhino
Multi Melta Speeder
Land Raider

Cassius
Tac w/ Melta/Lascannon/Power Weapon & Rhino
Vanguard w/o Jump Packs, 1 TH and a Pair of Lightening Claws
Vindicator
Crusader

We played a footdar list and two mech guard (the last one was a tough list/opponent)

We got pretty lucky our last game, but we were also missing a lot of tools that we really would have liked to take.

If we were building what we wanted we would have taken THSS termies over sternguard (I think), Mortis dreads over the speeder, maybe two crusaders instead of a regular raider, and maybe dropped Pedor.

We would have definetly kept the vanguard and cassius, that's an all star line up.

Did you share a FO chart or something? Because neither list has a second troop choice.

Explain Cassius + Vanguard. 6 Power armored models costing 300 points. On the charge you throw out;

Cassius; 4 S4 power weapon attacks
Normal guys; 8 normal attacks
Lighting claws; 4 LC attacks, rerolling wounds
T-hammer; 3 attacks, S8 T-hammer
Sergeant; 4 power weapon attacks

Rerolling all to-hits

Assault termies are 15 points more then the vanguard (or 10 less overall if you use a normal chaplain over cassius) and THEY get (with a chaplain, and 1 T-hammer guy for parity);

Chaplain; 4 S4 power weapon attacks
Normal guys; 16 lightning claw attacks
Thammer; 3 attacks, T-hammer.

SOOO, you trade cassius' T6 and combi-flamer, save 10 points and go from a 3+ to 2+/5++, lose 8 non-power weapon attacks and 4 normal PW attacks and gain 12 LC attacks....seems like a no brainer choice to me.

Carnage43 wrote:...
I have 3 Dreads, and no rifleman. Assault cannon/DCCW, MM/DCCW and Ironclad. Pain to convert one and paying FW for the arms is expensive. It's on my list of things to do, but WAY down the list.
...

Aegis defence line autos? No conversion required beyond making a mount for them, and as a pair can be had for less than $10.

the Aegis defense line doesn't even need conversion.

just drill the right sized hole in the Autocannon for the Dred's peg to fit in. or magnetize


my Gunline lists look something like this.

MOTF

TDA Librarian or Pedro(depending on points)

2-3 Tac squads with either Flamers or melta guns(and matching Combi weapons) with Lascannons or Missile launchers(if strapped for points) in Rhinos

an assault terminator squad in landraider(pedro can give these guys an insane amount of attacks)

possably an Ironclad or 2. if not its a Tactical Terminator squad with Clyclone missiles.

3-6 Typhoons.

and 2 Autocannon dreds

1 TL lascannon/Missile dred.



the list often catches people off guard who don't expect such dakka from a marine list.

i think the biggest advantage is that a list built like this one can turn it's abilities around very quickly.

if i get up against a Guard list with more shooting then me i can very easily go for the assault(avoiding blobs) or take any reserving he has done and take the advantage by destroying his deployed units quickly and entrenching for his reserves/outflankers.

if i draw an assaulty army i can stay mobile while plinking away at him with my guns.

Carnage43 wrote:Did you share a FO chart or something? Because neither list has a second troop choice.

Explain Cassius + Vanguard. 6 Power armored models costing 300 points. On the charge you throw out;

Cassius; 4 S4 power weapon attacks
Normal guys; 8 normal attacks
Lighting claws; 4 LC attacks, rerolling wounds
T-hammer; 3 attacks, S8 T-hammer
Sergeant; 4 power weapon attacks

Rerolling all to-hits

Assault termies are 15 points more then the vanguard (or 10 less overall if you use a normal chaplain over cassius) and THEY get (with a chaplain, and 1 T-hammer guy for parity);

Chaplain; 4 S4 power weapon attacks
Normal guys; 16 lightning claw attacks
Thammer; 3 attacks, T-hammer.

SOOO, you trade cassius' T6 and combi-flamer, save 10 points and go from a 3+ to 2+/5++, lose 8 non-power weapon attacks and 4 normal PW attacks and gain 12 LC attacks....seems like a no brainer choice to me.

It's an Adepticon TT FOC so you only need 1 troop each.

I think you have your pts wrong. I don't have a book in front of me but vanguard w/o jump packs are substantially cheaper.

And the vanguard are better against lost of different units. Plus their small bases allow you to multi charge in some really nasty ways.

And Cassius rocks. 25 pts for an extra wound and T6 over a standard chaplain is insane. If you are going to run a chaplain there is no reason not to take him.

I said if we had had what we wanted we would have taken assault termies instead of some other things, but vanguard w/o packs are a solid option.

Carnage43 wrote:I'm working on a 1500 point Vanilla list ATM for a tourny that is basically Librarian, 2xtactical squads + support, and honestly it's not working very well. I just look at the other dexes and realize I could get more, or better, for less.

My successful 1500 point list

Libb SS+TDA Avenger/nullzone
5 terminators 1x LC, 4 x TH in LRC with ea/mm
10 tacitical ml/flamer in rhino
5 tacitcal in tl assault cannon razorback
5 tacitcal in tl assault cannon razorback
typhoon speeder
2xhf/mm speeder squadron
predator ac/las

I seldom lose, even against the armies people call better. Nullzone is a powerful tool, as is avenger. I've noticed it does not play as well when scaled above 1500.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

It's an Adepticon TT FOC so you only need 1 troop each.

Fair enough

I think you have your pts wrong. I don't have a book in front of me but vanguard w/o jump packs are substantially cheaper.

5 Assualt Termies = 200
5 Vanguard = 125, T-hammer = 30, Twin LCs = 30 = 185
15 point difference

And the vanguard are better against lost of different units. Plus their small bases allow you to multi charge in some really nasty ways.

Vanguard are better against nothing, they are inferior troops all the way around. You make an interesting point about base sizes. I'd forgotten the new termies are all on 40mm rounds, as mine are all on 25mm round from 3rd edition.

And Cassius rocks. 25 pts for an extra wound and T6 over a standard chaplain is insane. If you are going to run a chaplain there is no reason not to take him.

He doesn't have an extra wound over a normal chaplain actually, but the +2T and combi-flamer are worth the 25 points anyways.

I said if we had had what we wanted we would have taken assault termies instead of some other things, but vanguard w/o packs are a solid option.

Vanguard are awful. Most likely the worst unit in the entire codex. The only, and i mean ONLY way you can make a case for them is via jet packs and their special deepstrike/charge ability to lock down back field heavy weapons units...and that's dicey as hell to get to work properly.

PraetorDave wrote:I think the thing that makes codex space marines great is that it isn't specialized.

Every unit in that book is usable in some sort of list, and the list variety is huge.

With C:SM you can build any list you want, and it will be a decent list.

Many of the suggestions we have seen:
Vulkan
Shrike+sternguard
TH/SS termies
Librarians+anything
All bike armies
Walking gunline
MoTF+6 dreads

Just start throwing together lists, and I'm sure you will come out with one that you like, and that will be competitive.

I agree with this summary. It covers the basics. C:SM is a solid codex that can produce several excellent competitive lists and some decent 'fluff' style armies.

Overall, I find it to be one solid codex.

Carnage43 wrote:Vanguard are awful. Most likely the worst unit in the entire codex. The only, and i mean ONLY way you can make a case for them is via jet packs and their special deepstrike/charge ability to lock down back field heavy weapons units...and that's dicey as hell to get to work properly.

I don’t know you so I’m going to try to not sound snotty, but we won our tournament, against some solid competition. At our local store, against very good guys, marine lists with vanguard win as often as anything else. And the local guys have taken vanguard to adepticon since the new book and done very well.

Using the jump packs and the DS rules is exactly how you don’t want to use them. 4 attacks on the charge, good weapons options, half the price of an assault terminator, small bases, krak and frag grenades, and nice synergy with an awesome character all sounds like a pretty decent unit to me.

Vanguard will do better against most hordes, most things with a good invulnerable saves, and more bodies on small bases means lots more multi charging which you almost can’t put a price on. They don’t have every advantage over assault termies, but they do have notable ones.

Even against assault termies if you run the math it really comes down to who gets the charge. Far from a useless unit.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:Vanguard are awful. Most likely the worst unit in the entire codex. The only, and i mean ONLY way you can make a case for them is via jet packs and their special deepstrike/charge ability to lock down back field heavy weapons units...and that's dicey as hell to get to work properly.

I don’t know you so I’m going to try to not sound snotty, but we won our tournament, against some solid competition. At our local store, against very good guys, marine lists with vanguard win as often as anything else. And the local guys have taken vanguard to adepticon since the new book and done very well.

Using the jump packs and the DS rules is exactly how you don’t want to use them. 4 attacks on the charge, good weapons options, half the price of an assault terminator, small bases, krak and frag grenades, and nice synergy with an awesome character all sounds like a pretty decent unit to me.

Vanguard will do better against most hordes, most things with a good invulnerable saves, and more bodies on small bases means lots more multi charging which you almost can’t put a price on. They don’t have every advantage over assault termies, but they do have notable ones.

Even against assault termies if you run the math it really comes down to who gets the charge. Far from a useless unit.

Ok Im going to chime in on this argument on behalf of the Assault Terminators.

I am an avid user of Vanguard Vets (Jump packs in DoA BA, and on foot with a Land Raider in C:SM). They are amazing with Jump Packs in the BA codex with DoA special rules, but that is a different story. On foot in the regular codex, they have a very niche role compared to the Assault Terminators (TH/SS namely). They are very good at tackling hordes of models with extremly poor saves (Guants, Ork boys, daemon hordes), but outside that, Assault Terminators will outperform them.

Defensively, the Terminators win hands down with a 2+ save and a 3++ on TH/SS and 5++ on claws. A 2+ save will make 5 Terminators last just as long as 10 Vanguard vets with a 3+ save. Throw in AP 1-3 shooting, and power weapons, and the Assault Terminators come out on top. No question here.

Offensively, the Terminators come out on top as well. Vanguards have str 4 regular attacks In the age of high toughness, elite, FnP troops, the Terminator weapons will almost always outperform the Vanguards. If you give the Vanguards these weapons, then they costing more then the Terminators themselves (Waste of points considering their defensive properties). TH/SS can take on walkers, instant kill amost everything, take on vehicles, elite troops, FnP. Lightning Claws can be used against hordes as well.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I don’t know you so I’m going to try to not sound snotty, but we won our tournament, against some solid competition. At our local store, against very good guys, marine lists with vanguard win as often as anything else. And the local guys have taken vanguard to adepticon since the new book and done very well.

Using the jump packs and the DS rules is exactly how you don’t want to use them. 4 attacks on the charge, good weapons options, half the price of an assault terminator, small bases, krak and frag grenades, and nice synergy with an awesome character all sounds like a pretty decent unit to me.

Vanguard will do better against most hordes, most things with a good invulnerable saves, and more bodies on small bases means lots more multi charging which you almost can’t put a price on. They don’t have every advantage over assault termies, but they do have notable ones.

Even against assault termies if you run the math it really comes down to who gets the charge. Far from a useless unit.

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/01/fallacies-i-use-it-and-it-works-for-me.html

Read that, it sums up my opinion about you and Vanguard well.

As for winning your tournament? Congrats. The Vanguard were a weak link in your army that a truly top tier player would exploit. So saying that Vanguard lists win as often as anything else just shows your local group isn't exactly a cut throat top tier environment. I'm confident I could take a 1500 point list filled with scouts, whirlwinds and venerable dreads, led by a master of the forge and still likely walk away with a 75-80% win ratio...those units still suck, but so do most of my opponents. Just because you don't lose when using crumby units doesn't make the unit good it just shows how poor your opponents are in comparison to you.

I can prove to you that terminators are better in EVERY SINGLE situation imaginable except charging after DS...which you think is a bad idea. I could also flame you, or spend an hour posting pages of math....but you are so wrong it should be evident to everyone else. Good day sir.

I'm relatively new to this, so these are all great lists and advice to take in. I had always been unsure if C:SM had advantages over the other marines.

What I've noticed is that my Sternguard always perform well with only their special ammo, provided I don't put them somewhere they'll get blasted.

Also, the army as a whole, like someone mentioned above, performs much better as a reactive force. Lure them in while shooting, then counterattack when I see the opportunity.