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I'm tinkering with Footdar lists in preparation for testing this weekend, this is my latest version. Any opinions on what to change are welcome and will be considered.


Eldrad

Farseer w/ Stones, RoWit, Doom, Fortune, Spear, Bike
5 Warlock w/ Bikes and Spears (Enhance, Embolden, 3x Destructor)

10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser
Warlock w/ Conceal

10 Guardians w/ Scatter Laser
Warlock w/ Conceal

10 DAs
10 DAs
10 DAs

Vyper w/ Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon

Wraithlord w/ 2x Flamer, Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord w/ 2x Flamer, Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord w/ 2x Flamer, Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon

Leaves 47 points to mess with.


A lot less typical than my previous build, I'll try to explain my choices. First the Council. I think a Council is a bit more deserving of an HQ slot than an Avatar because it is more helpful in a higher volume of games. Being an all foot army I am slower than most lists, so I need help with getting at gunlines, contesting objectives and just having a unit that doesn't move at the same pace as the rest. The Council is very good for this and helps with a few weaknesses, one being anti-vehicle. Spears make them able to damage vehicles on the move and stationary by not needing to rely on 6's to hit, or damage simply through shooting. Since most armor is 10-12 right now, S9 is a good counter for that. They're also adept at horde killing with 3 Destructors and can be a good tarpit with Fortune when I need them to be.

I took DAs without the Exarchs because unless you're Meched I don't think they're worth it. I can add more bodies for the points instead of Bladestorm, I'd rather have the reliable offense and not offense potential. Also makes wound allocation less scary but that's a minor plus, it's mostly to shave points and sustain reliability.

Vyper was because I had leftover points and it is the most tentative choice. I like the cheap firepower but I really want a second one, it doesn't feel like a good one of choice. I am considering dropping it for a small Jetbike unit to assist with taking out small units like Devs/Lootas and give me a fast unit that can score. Open to other options as well.

I decided not to give the Wraithlords Bright Lance and Missile Launcher because it is unnecessary. S6 spam is very useful against all armies, where heavy weapon spam is not. Lances are for reaching out on AV14, which is not as common right now as it was. Also anything that is AV14 all around I can A. ignore or B. wait to come to me, most players don't leave their Land Raiders in their Deployment Zone. S6 works fine against light transports and can be combo'd with Eldritch Storm, which is an ability people sometimes forget about.


I think the army has strong anti-Infantry power in both assault and shooting, same for light transports. I have slight ability against heavy armor in assault but not much from shooting, however I am gambling on not seeing a lot of it. I feel less confident against armies that can use a good amount of FA12+/SA12 tanks but those aren't very common. MC Spam (Tyranids) can also be a problem, not sure how to counter that effectively. I could only kill a Trygon/Tervigon by dumping all my DAs into it plus a little extra with Doom, which is not effective.

So opinions? I would like to hear what people think this is weak against even if you have no opinion on how to juggle the points. On paper I don't feel steam rolled by any of the "Tier 1" builds, although Mech IG isn't something I'd ask for.

Against rhino wall you'll fair decently, against jsut about anything else you are going to struggle pretty heavily. You have 2 BS3 Scatters, 3 BS BS4 scatters and that is it for greater then 24" range, if you go up against anything that has better range or is a fast assault unit you'll be pounded into the ground. Guardians with conceal stick aroudn a little longer, but without embolden or an avatar they'll run off the board faster then you think. Dire Avengers on foot lose all viability. 18" range is terrible and they are a wet paper sack in CC.

If facing a skilled opponent all anti tank single shots will go into your wraiths, the seer council will be singled out by swarm fire since they will be way ahead of anything else in your list, and enemy blasts or assault units will have a field day with anything on foot.

The only things that footdar viable is cheap bodies with mass amounts of guardians + heavy weapon with an Avatar or a Wraithwall to a lesser extent. I have yet to see any other viable foot list as we are simple too squishy or expensive.

So would you say it's better to spam Guardians over DAs? I don't think Cannons are that bad as 12" deployment up plus 6" movement usually gets them in range, but I would take double Laser if I could. I think dropping DAs leaves an opening for TWC or Infantry in general, losing the 6" and the BS hurts. I could drop all the DAs and pick up more Guardians but I don't know if that's really helpful.

I like the Avatar, but I think losing the speed really hurts. Regular Jetbikes don't have any staying power unless they can avoid being shot at and that really hurts against Battlewagons or any other moving army where they rely on showing their front only, which typically hurt S6 pretty bad. The only other thing I can think of is Warp Spiders but those seem very overpriced to me, 200+ points for a gang of T3 bodies is not going to hold up unless they can always jump away, which is random.

Having a lot of Guardians with the Avatar represents a very solid group but it is extremely weak to being out-maneuvered and things like Battlewagon Spam or even Chimera Wall because there is now way to get side/rear shots. Not sure how to alleviate that.

What purpose are the guardian squads serving? Are they just there because you have the models, or haven't thought of dropping them, or does a 12" range squad that brings a single scatter laser have a place here? I don't know, I don't play foot, but it looks like they're dead meat. Maybe take storm guardians, or drop them for bikes/vypers/more DAs.

Seer council is nice, but only 6 models, and if they get into a long combat then they'll only have 1 attack each cause of spears. I know you don't plan on getting them locked in, they're more about using spears to bust vehicles, but its going to happen one day. I'd drop the spears from the destructor models, gives you better odds against hordes, saves a few points, and gives you 3 extra attacks in those long combats.

Ignore AV14. You'll phase necrons out long before you could kill a monolith with this list, and land raiders are just going to shoot your wraithlords and maybe do a wound every turn, if they're lucky. Focus on what you're good at - dropping lots of shots into hordes. I can see trouble against any list with demolishers/battle cannons/template spam though.

Correct, you have to pick either the Seer council or Avatar. Eldrad in a foot list is kinda non negotiable since you need so many powers.

Guardian Foot list - This is a list where you have 6 units of Guardians in conjunction with an Avatar. Each unit has a Scatter laser 36", but due to fearless it'll keep firing till the cows come home. Get CCed? Their fearless, pickup your chunk of models each round and laugh as their CC unit keeps chomping each turn or Shove the avatar/other counter assault up their rear and laugh as they can't attack the counter assault that round. It's essentially the same philosophy as ork horde except you get S6 shots from each unit and you'd be suprised how much firepower you'll have once something does get in range.

Wraithwall Foot list - Kinda a no brainer here. The major issue with Wraithwall is the cost of those units and no long range from the units.


Wraithlords to be honest should NEVER have scatter lasers or Bright lances. Wanna kill horde? That is what the dual flamers are for. Wanna kill tanks? EML/BL. Wanna punch something in the face and soak up ML shots? Wraithsword only. If you are within 24" of your opponent you should be preparing for a dual flamer hit and strategic positioning.

An example of a Guardians list is:

Eldrad
Avatar
6x 10 Guardians w/ Scatter Lasers + Warlock (1 Embolden for Eldrad's powers, 2 Conceal for front lines in case of crappy terrain, 3 for whatever you feel is nesscary)
10 Harlies w/ Kisses, Shadowseer
3x Wraithlords with BL/EML (Your anti-tank to remove the pieplaters/force the enemy to come to you with big gun intimidation)

You can fill in points as needed but that is the core.

The Guardians currently are to grant cover to the DAs, so they don't die from a strong wind. They're also able to get in the way and break instantly so I can shoot again but that's not going to happen very commonly since they're so small. I would always ignore AV14 with pretty much any build of this archetype, unless it is triple Raider in which case I may be a little screwed. :]


Making a lot of sense Blue, however I still can't see how to get around the weaknesses I brought up with either version. All lists have to have some bad matchups but Battlewagon Spam is very common and I'm a little nervous about being so weak to it. My best bet there is to Storm and hope I can see Side or Rear or wait until it gets up close. The wording on Storm is a little vague, if they're tightly bunched would I be able to spin it so it had to move the other tanks to accommodate the new position, or do they basically sandwich it in?

On pure paper Guardian spam sounds more effective as you can use the Avatar to keep them in or make them break as you like. I suppose being in the midst of 40-50 Guardians with Doom on you would not end well for a lot of units, especially with an Avatar or maybe some Harlequins waiting in the wings.

I really don't like Bright Lances and you said so yourself never to use one, but then said to use one versus tanks. They just don't have great odds against AV14 and that's not something I care about. EMLs are fine but the Scatter Laser is really versatile. Obviously Flamers are better for Hordes but Laser gives some ability against light armor at range or small units like Long Fangs, just keeps it doing something all the time.


Edit: The list you use as an example is WAY over 1750 points.

1750 Footdar list... How i would like it...

210 Eldrad

155 Avatar

250 10 Quins - kisses, shadowseer

116 12 Guardians - EML

100 10 Guardians - EML

100 10 Guardians - EML

177 10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, shimmershield, defend, bladestorm

177 10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, shimmershield, defend, bladestorm

155 Wraithlord - Brightlance/EML twin flamers

155 Wraithlord - Brightlance/EML twin flamers

155 Wraithlord - Brightlance/EML twin flamers

I'd like some spiders in and warlocks on the guardian squads aswell, but my pizza is due any minute so i dont have the time to list fiddle ^.^

What he's saying with the lances is that if you're going EML on a Wraithlord, you're going to be popping tanks, and if you're going to be popping tanks, you can't pair it with a scatter laser. Nothing else in the list can touch even a predator, and even though you can safely ignore land raiders, you're going to need to deal with razorbacks and battlewagons in numbers larger than you're comfortable with.

That is why the tank popping wraithlords are there - with 2 shots you can almost rely on them penetrating a transport every turn, and with guide you can almost guarentee a kill. Sure, Scatter Lasers are nice and can hit rhinos, but they can't scratch anything bigger or meaner than that.

Correct Teh, scatter lasers are nice, dont' get me wrong, but there is a lot of AV 12 and 13 out there and vs those, you are screwed. The Wraithlords are there as your medium tank poppers to fill the gap you currently have of long range anti-medium vehicle. Toss guide on two of them and now you have pretty good death to slow your opponent down some the scatters can do a little more and your guardians have a better chance of getting their shots off.

If Battllewagon spam is common in your meta then you shouldn't be running Footdar at all lol.

Remember Storm REALLY shouldn't be relied on at all. It's 18" range and you have to hit to spin it the way you want. Mindwar and Eldritch Storm are there as your "oh crap, throw the kitchen sinks at them" type powers as most of the time you will be using fortune/fortune/guide or guide/guide/fortune.