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When do I count a downed necron model towards the tally, the the necron codes it states that the model is ignored for game purposes and that it has lost its last wound.

So do I count a downed necron towards my tally, and possibly score again if he gats back up and I kill him agian

or

Do I count it when they fail 'we'll be back' rolls?

Just not sure how to play this one!


thanks....

Count them only after they fail WBB.

Only after they are actually removed as a casualty, which is only after they fail a WBB.

Awaiting WBB is instead of removing them as a casualty, which is what the Tally triggers from

Are you sure? Does tally say 'when a model is removed from play.' or 'for each model killed'.

Last I remember it was "removed from play as a casualty", but I could be wrong on that!

You can definitely argue the model isnt "killed" until it fails WBB, as it is still on the table. "Killed" is also a hideous term...

Cool, so no token until a failed WBB.
But on the tally again (deamon codex not to hand) how does it ask for the models to be removed from play? If I recall it's from their actual attacks, so are necrons ever removed from play by anything other than a failed WBB or denial of their save?

I think that when necron is killed it counts as killed and so it is counted to epidemius rule. After it have raised it is point again for epidemius.

The necron codex makes it explicitly clear that necrons are not dead until they have failed WBB, before that they are just simply down. If they were downed by a follower of nurgle, or a similar working ability like the tower of skulls, they would not count to eithers needed tally number til they had attempted to get back up. This has the unique ability to potentially not grant abilities or powers until the necron turn.

Yeah, WBB clearly states it effect replaces the removal of the model, the issue I feel might arise when a downed necron fails a WBB, did the follower of nurgle actually down it?
Does one need to keep track in multi-assaults of whiuch followers killed whom? Or is failing a WBB not actually being downed by a follower of nurgle?

Someone is wrong with the rule with Epid's. Here the rule for Epid, becuase i play with him. The WBB, hurt you as a Necron, because Epid's does not states model removed, it states how many models are killed. So, your wounds are reduce to 0, so we get a kill for the tally, you roll for WBB and then we get another chance of getting the tally higher.

You didn't give us the rule quote...

=P

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Someone is wrong with the rule with Epid's. Here the rule for Epid, becuase i play with him. The WBB, hurt you as a Necron, because Epid's does not states model removed, it states how many models are killed. So, your wounds are reduce to 0, so we get a kill for the tally, you roll for WBB and then we get another chance of getting the tally higher.

Necrons whose wounds are reduced to 0 are not killed, they are damaged. This is from the first paragraph of the WBB rule on page 13. The damaged Necrons, which would otherwise be removed, have a chance to return. If they do not make their WBB roll (or can't) then you "...remove the model as normal." It is at that point, when they are removed, that they are "killed" or "destroyed". This is backed up by the latest Dark Eldar FAQ that says a pain token is only granted when the model/unit is completely removed from play.

Woot. No tally for necrons!

Jone96 wrote:I think that when necron is killed it counts as killed and so it is counted to epidemius rule. After it have raised it is point again for epidemius.

Check the Dark Eldar faq. It basically addresses this with their pain tokens.

Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain
token for destroying a model/unit with the ability to return
to play. For example a Necron with the Weʼll be Back
special rule. (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the
unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is
completely removed from play. In the case of a Necronunit,
a pain token will be generated once a unit has been
destroyed (even if some of its models have returned into
other nearby units).

time wizard wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Someone is wrong with the rule with Epid's. Here the rule for Epid, becuase i play with him. The WBB, hurt you as a Necron, because Epid's does not states model removed, it states how many models are killed. So, your wounds are reduce to 0, so we get a kill for the tally, you roll for WBB and then we get another chance of getting the tally higher.

Necrons whose wounds are reduced to 0 are not killed, they are damaged. This is from the first paragraph of the WBB rule on page 13. The damaged Necrons, which would otherwise be removed, have a chance to return. If they do not make their WBB roll (or can't) then you "...remove the model as normal." It is at that point, when they are removed, that they are "killed" or "destroyed". This is backed up by the latest Dark Eldar FAQ that says a pain token is only granted when the model/unit is completely removed from play.

Party foul, you can't use the DE FAQ for a Daemon Chaos Codex, DE FAQ is used only for DE and CD FAQ are only used for CD. Therefore your ruling is wrong, the tally is still applies to WBB.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Party foul, you can't use the DE FAQ for a Daemon Chaos Codex, DE FAQ is used only for DE and CD FAQ are only used for CD. Therefore your ruling is wrong, the tally is still applies to WBB.

Not as an absolute answer, but we are trying to work out RAI for a complex scenario. The DE example is certainly relevant.

Azure wrote:The necron codex makes it explicitly clear that necrons are not dead until they have failed WBB, before that they are just simply down. If they were downed by a follower of nurgle, or a similar working ability like the tower of skulls, they would not count to eithers needed tally number til they had attempted to get back up. This has the unique ability to potentially not grant abilities or powers until the necron turn.

You should change that to say "not dead until they're removed from play" as there are more ways to remove them from play that don't allow a WBB roll.

I had poor wording there yeah, but the only thing that'll be killing them with no WBB will be Daemon Princes with MoN, Ku'gath in CC and a GUO. After the Tally hits 20 more things will but at that point the Tally won't matter >...>



Also, here is an exact quote of Epidimius's Tally rule. If posting this is against the rules I hope the Mods catch it real quick, but I won't give away at what stage bonuses come into play so I hope I'm fine.
"While Epidimius is on the table keep a count of all models killed by followers of Nurgle (i.e. any daemon of Nurgle, or model with the Mark of Nurgle, both friends and enemies) anywhere on the table. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below to determine the effect of the Tally of Pestilence. From the beginning of that turn, and as long as Epidimius is on the table, these cumulative bonuses affect all followers of Nurgle (both friend and foe!)."

I understand what you were getting at, I was simply expanding it (beyond daemon armies) that there are many ways to die with no WBB waiting to be rolled. Also remember that with no res orb present any weapon with a strength double the toughness of the model getting hit will negate WBB as well.

Kevin949 wrote:I understand what you were getting at, I was simply expanding it (beyond daemon armies) that there are many ways to die with no WBB waiting to be rolled. Also remember that with no res orb present any weapon with a strength double the toughness of the model getting hit will negate WBB as well.

I was limiting myself to only including the Daemon's army as that is the one that is currently being discussed, and to which I think we've now covered that 'downed' Necrons do not count towards the Tally.

Sweeping Advance to tally. Everything else just downs them, and WBB kills them. Personally I assume the existance of an Orb, as any Cron player would be a fool not to have one.

Oh, and if the unit is the last one of their kind on the table, they are still laid down to await WBB in the following necron player turn. They just don't get a roll and are removed then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sweeping Advance to tally. Everything else just downs them, and WBB kills them. Personally I assume the existance of an Orb, as any Cron player would be a fool not to have one.

Oh, and if the unit is the last one of their kind on the table, they are still laid down to await WBB in the following necron player turn. They just don't get a roll and are removed then.

axeman1n wrote:Sweeping Advance to tally. Everything else just downs them, and WBB kills them.

WBB no more kills models than FNP does. I do however agree that no tally occurs until WBB rolls are failed.

axeman - WBB does NOT kill them, it just fails to save them. Same as failing an armour save doesnt mean your armour killed you.

ANY necron model that fails a WBB (and any monolith reroll, of course) counts as to the tally, if Nurgle caused the WBB in the first place.

I know that. I'm just being cute. The RAW say that they didn't die. No one is going to cry cheese when it comes to Necrons.

The RAW does say they die - they are removed as a casualty if they fail their save, same as when you first get "removed as a casualty" WBB (usually) steps in.

The Dark Elder PFP ruling doesn't really make a good precedent for this, even if you are inclined to read another army's FAQ. Pain Tokens are granted when a _unit_ is destroyed, and when you wipe out a unit of Necrons, any successful WBB saves will result in the models joining another unit, so the Unit is certainly destroyed. The Tally rule, on the other hand, is concerned with when models are killed, which is very different.

I tend to agree with the previous few posters - Tally is added to when the models fail their WBB rolls.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Wow thanks for all the imput on this one, I'll carry on the way I have been and contiune only counting them after they fail WBB rolls, but seeing as the new necron codex will be out fairly soon and this will be replaced by FNP I dont have much to worry about!

Thanks again!

FNP FTL

tenclaw wrote:Wow thanks for all the imput on this one, I'll carry on the way I have been and contiune only counting them after they fail WBB rolls, but seeing as the new necron codex will be out fairly soon and this will be replaced by FNP I dont have much to worry about!

Thanks again!

Uh, there's no hard proof (or anything of the sort) that says that is what is going to happen.