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REALLY happy with these little rules PLEASE COMMENT!!!

If this proposed rule existed it would be a paragraph in the rulebook under the entry for Invulnerable saves. It would read something like this.

Invulnerable Save classification:
In an invulnerable unit entry or the entry for an upgrade which provides an invulnerable save it should specify (in brackets) which type of invulnerable save is provided. The types are as follows:

Psychic, Daemonic: These Invulnerable saves may never be taken against attacks that ignore the save. For example a warscythe or Incinerator. May be modified by psychic powers.

Tech: Same as above except they Cannot be Modified by psychic powers. For example Nullzone.

Reflex: These saves may always be taken except against attacks that do not require line of sight or psychic attacks that do not require a to hit roll. For example (can't think of a better one atm ) Lelith Hesperex taking wounds from the Mindwar power. Or Engaged wyches wounded with an indirect basilisk teamplate.

Fortune: These may never be taken against psychic Powers. Cant think of an example, there used to be grot character who was lucky. Lukas the trickster?

Willpower: Only the mightiest survive through sheer willpower. They may always take their invulnerable save.

Lukas the Trickster doesn't have an invun.
I would change it to 2 catagories.
Artificial
Natural
Artificial saves can be modified by things that usually modify invun saves e.g. Warscythe and Nullzone, this includes bonuses.
Natural saves can't be used against anything that auto-hits this includes bonuses.

I like your streamlining but My main problems were 'rolling out the way' of a mindwar and Nullzone nullifying a shield drone. I dont actually know the rules for nullzone but when comeone said they could negate flickerfields i was a little bit peeved so wrote these.
And willpower is meant for the Big dogs like Calgar, Lysander, Yarrick, Dante etc...

Perkustin wrote:I like your streamlining but My main problems were 'rolling out the way' of a mindwar and Nullzone nullifying a shield drone. I dont actually know the rules for nullzone but when comeone said they could negate flickerfields i was a little bit peeved so wrote these.

Then Mind-War get a rule saying it auto-hits against people with a Natural Invun.
Nullzone just nullifies everything so i can believe that.
Certain psyhic powers can be dodged (Bolt of change and others like it)
Anything that has a chance of missing can be dodged.
Somethings could get the ability to auto-hit anything with a Natural Invun. this would have to be a rarely used rule though.

Hmmmm 40k really needs better classification of it's 'spells' a la WHFB 'Magic Missiles' etc... Because that is what i deem as dodgable like a lightning bolt kinda thing or a fireball but not someone boiling your blood from inside.

So...warscythe vs. willpower invul save = game breaker? Since willpower "always" gets invul save and warscythe bypasses invul saves...it's the unstoppable force vs. immovable object all over again.

Got a great image of a guy headbutting a Warscythe and the Warscythe bouncing off and slicing through a tank.

purplefood wrote:Got a great image of a guy headbutting a Warscythe and the Warscythe bouncing off and slicing through a tank.

Well we already have sword that can slice through tanks bouncing off storm shields, no?

Yeah this is the sort of thing that bothers me in 40k - it's called an INVULNERABLE save, therefore nothing should be able to negate them. Then when things do it sometimes doesn't make sense. For example, Ragnar's invulnerable save - it is based on his quick reflexes, so shouldn't he be able to try to dodge a warscythe? I like the natural/artificial idea, it complicates things the least, but I'd just be happiest if Invul saves couldn't be negated.

im wondering why librarians dnt hve inv. saves. they could toss up a psychic shield @ the last possible second or something. then librarians would be almost perfect

I would say neither are particularly complicated, it is just an extra paragraph in the rules that might occasionally need consulting. Plus the streamlining only removes one inconsistancy, not them all.

It is no more complicated than any of the universal special rules e.g. it is commonly forgotten that with poisoned cc weapons if your strength is equal/higher than the toughness you get to re roll...

I think the librarians dont have an Invulnerable for that very reason.

my librarians do =]

FORCE DOME NA NA NA NAAAAAAA!!! naffest power ever

Or termy armour =]

Perkustin wrote:REALLY happy with these little rules PLEASE COMMENT!!!

If this proposed rule existed it would be a paragraph in the rulebook under the entry for Invulnerable saves. It would read something like this.

Invulnerable Save classification:
In an invulnerable unit entry or the entry for an upgrade which provides an invulnerable save it should specify (in brackets) which type of invulnerable save is provided. The types are as follows:

Psychic, Daemonic: These Invulnerable saves may never be taken against attacks that ignore the save. For example a warscythe or Incinerator. May be modified by psychic powers.

Tech: Same as above except they Cannot be Modified by psychic powers. For example Nullzone.

Reflex: These saves may always be taken except against attacks that do not require line of sight or psychic attacks that do not require a to hit roll. For example (can't think of a better one atm ) Lelith Hesperex taking wounds from the Mindwar power. Or Engaged wyches wounded with an indirect basilisk teamplate.

Fortune: These may never be taken against psychic Powers. Cant think of an example, there used to be grot character who was lucky. Lukas the trickster?

Willpower: Only the mightiest survive through sheer willpower. They may always take their invulnerable save.

Fortune and Willpower sounds a lot like psychic saves or in case of willpower, Feel No Pain.

Also, it seems your buffing tech saves a lot (read: Space Marines). Under what category of attack does Force Weapon fall under? It requires a psychic test to function. Is a Farseer's armour, heavily psy-tech a psychic or technological creation?

I'd prefer a distinction between barrier and avoidance more. Some things can't be avoided, such as a Farseer crushing your brains, while others can't be shielded against (although these are mostly CC or secondary effects which invulnerables don't work against in either case.).
Avoidance - Typically bad against area-attacks and non-to-hit attacks, such as Mortars and Perils in the Warp respectively. This is typically luck, reflex, or holo-tech. A large portion of Eldar tech falls into this category.
Barriers - Typically bad against invulnerable-piercing attacks or lock-down attacks, such as Warscythe and Null-Zone respectively. This is typically actively fortified armour (artificer armour), psychic/demonic shields, or force-fields. A large portion of human tech falls into this category.

A further advantage between these two distinctions is that you can alter Turbo-Boosting and similar cover saves into becoming avoidance invulnerable saves. Some weapons that ignore cover do so by blasting through the cover, which simply makes no sense when the save is granted from moving really fast.
On the other hand, weapons which simply fill the volume of space the enemy is in with plasma, against those Avoidance saves makes no sense. This endangers making flamers even better, naturally.

I like! This has been slightly better refined, i am happy i caused you to put some thought into this. FTR i dont think there would necesarily be any issue over deciding what's what as i said it would be clearly stated in the codex/FAQ what type each was. For Runic armour i would have thought psychic as per Wychblades. I still think a reflex style invulnerable would be able to dodge any saturation style weapon as long as they could determine the source. Hence why indirect fire can still catch 'em.

Again this is better thoght out than Natural/artificial as that leaves daemons better off.

Hi all.
IMO, 'Invunerable saves' should be called 'Alternative saves'.As this will not confuse peope when they are NOT frakking invunerable!
In the same way 'Universal Special Rules should be called 'Additional rules'.

Alternative saves can be then classed as;-

Invunerable ,Are NEVER modified for any reason what so ever.

Displacement, the opponent HAS to re roll any sucessful to hit rolls.(Eg dodging out of the way or bluring/obscuring the target.)

Psychic ,ONLY modified by weapons that have the special ability to work against psychic saves.

TTFN