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I'm in some kind of dilemma. I am making a 1850 Vulkan list and here it is so far:




So far so good, until someone pointed out that I'll have a problem with hordes, so I might want to consider running Whirlwinds instead of Preds, or maybe TFCs which compliments m Telion scouts. Do you guys think I do have enough firepower (pun intended, since most of my anti-horde is from flamers) to deal with hordes? It also revisits the Whirlwind versus TFC dilemma, now also compared to Dakka Preds. Then I have though of something I have never thought of before: Speeders with two HBs. Cheaper than a Dakka pred, it trades the Autocannon shot for maneuverability. And since it's cheaper I can take up to three: which, compared to two Dakka preds will have more shots (and if you try to move a Dakka Pred anyway, it'll get only one gun to fire). They can also reposition more freely, even as a squadron (which my army as a whole lacks because after the initial drop everyone's basically not-that maneuverable). Or is the idea crap and it's a waste of 60 points for 2 HBs?

To summarize: if you have this kind of list, what would you take: dakka preds, whirlwinds, TFCs or maybe the uncommon dual-HB speeders? And if so, how would you deploy them and what kinds of tactics will you use?

Note: I am also considering just taking 7 MM/HF speeders and they'll wreck havoc to anything that moves. Or speeders with HF/HB.

Double HB speeders are certainly sexy. Typhoons have similar or greater anti-horde firepower though. Their full HB/frag load is pretty dangerous and can be fired at higher speed than 2HB.

Looks fine to me. Vulkan will make the flamer hits you do get stick, and there's still bolters. Maybe put some combiflamers on sternguard or sarges? Otherwise you could probably get a whirlwind by cutting a few corners, they're cheap. Telion and the scout ML is over half its cost.

Typhoons also cost 20 points more, unfortunately. What I've thought about is getting two Whirlwinds or a TFC and a Whirlwind. Most of the times the are crappy in C:SM lists, but here they are more useful: once I pop the opponent's tanks with my meltas, aim the Whirlwind and/or TFC on the infantry and watch it die. Plus, they are more survivable since I'm podding, therefore a lot of my units are on the opponent's face ASAP and most of the time they'll shoot them first.

Oka this is turning into a 40k army list thread, which was not my intention. My intention is mostly.... dakka pred/whirlwind/TFC/dual HB speeders if someone wants anti-personnel fire? With a list like that would you rather take:

a) two Dakka Preds
b) two Whirlwinds
c) a TFC and a Whirlwind
d) a Dakka Pred and a Whirlwind
e) 3 dual-HB typhoons
f) none of the above

Hold on. Your list already has two dakka preds. Are those the same as option A in your question?

ewwwww, Multimelta Tac marines


Typhoon speeders will put out more firepower then the other options on your list and they can threaten more targets then anything else.

Whirlwinds are useless against vehicles

TFCs are almost useless against vehicles

Dual HB speeders can't put out as much anti-infantry firepower a Typhoon can and they can't really threaten vehicles(and FYI: you can't have 2 HBs and the Typhoon missile launchers. unless the Typhoon in e) was supposed to say Tornado)

Dakka Preds are decent against infantry and light vehicles, but they won't do a thing against any serious vehicles.

Grey Templar wrote:ewwwww, Multimelta Tac marines

What's wrong with them? If you're using Vulkan and you're using pods they are decent, since you don't have to move to be in range.

Typhoon speeders will put out more firepower then the other options on your list and they can threaten more targets then anything else.

I was looking for quantity of firepower. For two Typhoons, you can get three dual-HBs. And why would I need to threaten more targets if everything else in my list threatens all targets? Everything else can threaten both vehicles and infantry alike: as I was saying I was looking for something to threaten hordes and other infantry.

Whirlwinds are useless against vehicles

TFCs are almost useless against vehicles

Gee, I didn't know that.

See above. I have 16 twin-linked meltas, and a missile launcher that almost always hits. Why would I need more things against vehicles?

Dual HB speeders can't put out as much anti-infantry firepower a Typhoon can and they can't really threaten vehicles(and FYI: you can't have 2 HBs and the Typhoon missile launchers. unless the Typhoon in e) was supposed to say Tornado)

See above: 2 Typhoons versus 3 Dual-HBs against infantry. 6 HB shots plus 2 frag shots (that may or may not deviate, also with proper spacing those frag shots are useless against hordes) versus 18 HB shots. Wonder which will theoretically hurt infantry more?

I'm not saying Dual HBs are good, period (that's still up to speculation, that's what the thread is for): I'm just saying that you should look at it in dealing with infantry, not versatility.

Dakka Preds are decent against infantry and light vehicles, but they won't do a thing against any serious vehicles.

Again, see above. Also, if Dakka Preds are decent against infantry, doesn't that mean that dual HBs are decent against infantry as well? Say two dakka preds versus 3 dual HBs would be 12 HB shots and 2 autocannon shots versus 18 HB shots (also to factor in that the Dakka Pred hasn't moved so that it can fire its weapons, plus all of its weapons has to have LOS of the enemy, something the speeders won't have a problem with).

Almarine wrote:Hold on. Your list already has two dakka preds. Are those the same as option A in your question?

Yes. Would you consider removing Dakka Preds for more infantry-killing power? Given that 1) your a drop pod list and you're in your enemy's face ASAP so survivability is less of a concern since opponent has to deal with the threats near his/her army first and 2) you're willing to trade versatility for anti-infantry firepower.

Going to +1 the Typhoon speeders.

They give you long range punch that Vulkan lists lack. Can threaten infantry, light and medium armor, and heavy armor on the sides.

They can move 12" and fire both the HB and the 2x frag missiles which is crucial. Your 2x HB speeders that you are talking about can only move 6" and fire, and will easily be caught in assaults. This is why the Typhoon and the HF/MM are the most popular speeders: move 12" and fire MM, move 12" and fire HF, move 12" and fire 2x Krak missiles, move 12" and fire 2x frag and HB. Always move 12" - they don't call it fast attack for nothing.

I run squads of 2x Typhoons, and when I target spaced infantry I can deal 15 wounds on average. Infantry caught clumped (from exploding transports or deep striking) are usually wiped out.

TFC is a fun unit to use, and will give you a bolster for your sniper scouts to get a 2+ cover save.

With a Vulkan list though, more flamers is always an option. The most devistating anti infantry alpha strike unit I have used is an Ironclad with 2x HF out of a drop pod with vulkans chapter tactics makes huge 20+ infantry squads go bye bye.

You could consider throwing some combiflamers and/or heavy flamers with the sternguard. Drop one of the combi meltas so you can combat squad 5 out and then use the other combat squad with flamers/heavy flamers and special ammo to drop infantry.

I'm also going to echo scuba here and say run a couple typhoons. And as he mentioned, the TFC goes well with the scouts. Just watch out for template weapons hitting the scouts and negating their cover.

Here is why footsloggin MMs aren't great, even in Vulkan lists.


your drop pod comes down. but wait, you can't fire yet as you count as moving.

your opponent has a full turn to get his tanks away from your MM. and beyond 1/2 range the MM is really just a glorified missile launcher(with AP1)

beyond 12", a Landraider is going to laughoff a MM shot. and so will a Lemun Russ.



at least the MM is free on Tac marines. a missile launcher has the advantage of never really being out of range of any targets.



3 dual HB speeders are far worse against hordes then 2 Typhoons.

assuming your shooting at orks that are spaced out properly.


2 Typhoons will average 4 hits with their HBs, which becomes about 3 dead orks.

the missile launchers will net the following.

about 1 direct hit which will hit one ork. 3 scatters which should nab at least 2 orks each(average scatter of 3") 7 hits, 4 wounds for a total of 7 dead orks(3 HB, 4 frag blasts)


3 dual HBs will net the following.

6 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead orks.


the dual HBs, however, won't be able to outrun the orks unless they sacrifice shooting one HB each.

As for the MM's on the tacs Grey Templar, you are correct that his opponent has a turn to move away, but chance are that those tanks will get out of 24" range is not that great. The MM outside of 12" is still better than the rocket launcher (unless the tanks can get out of 24" range). Personally I use one MM in a tac squad, but he is mounted in a rhino so it is different tactics. But to each his own.

I do think he better off getting the typhoons as everyone has suggested.

Few things.

1) MM on the tac squads, in a VULKAN list the MM is TL, and a ML is not. Do not let people convince you to take away the MM on the tac squads.

2) Whirlwind is just not good enough to be a serious choice. It only ignores cover with a single S4 large blast. Ignoring cover is good, BUT S4 is just not good enough I think.

3) The Thunderfire canon is a great gun. It can ignore cover with S5 AP6, so it is perfect against Orks or Nids, but a little weaker against IG with their 5+ save. ALSO it can fire 4 blast at S6 which can put the hurt on small clumped up units, even if they have good saves. People getting out of transports or DS and shooting tend to be in little clumps. 1 Large blast gives you 5 hits, 4 small can give you 20, (against small clumped up targets). VERY VUNERABLE. Because of how artillery works in 5th, the gun is VERY quickly destroyed.

4) 2x HB speeders. what will these guys do if you are NOT facing a horde list? the HB is not that great against MEQ or TEQ reallly, and it has no use against vehicles or most MCs either. Simply put, the Typhoon Speeder can be used against more targets INCLUDING horde units and thus is generally a better choice.


I would try to find the points to make your sterguard 5x combi-melta, 3x Combi-flamer, 2x Heavy Flamer. You can land and the combat squad, the melta half cooks something, and the flamer half cooks what comes out. TL flamers/heavy flamers will deal a TON of wounds. the 3x2 flamer set up will probably roast 30 boys if you can get about 7 boys under each template...


I just re-read the origional post. You say that a friend told you that you would have trouble with hordes. Have you ever played a horde army with this list? if you have, what units were giving you trouble? Honestly, the origional list has the tools to tak out hordes, with a bunch of TL HF on stuff...

Go ahead and keep the Multi-melta.

see how many times you actually get to use it to full effect.


also keep track of how a missile launcher would preform in the same space(that Rhino that was waaayy out of range and was able to contest the final objective because you had nothing to shoot at it)

Multi-meltas on Tactical squads aren't just for actually killing things. In most cases they have strong area denial effects as well, so looking only at what they kill won't be a reliable way of seeing how effective they are in an average game.

Unless you are going to combat squad, then the Heavy Weapon in a Tac squad is mostly useless. If you are going to stay in one unit and move closer to the enemy, then why not use the shortest range/highest damage heavy weapon option?

Also, the MM is TL and AP 1 so even when it is not used "to full effect" (shooting 12"-24") it is STILL way better than a ML.


If you are going for combat squads in rhinos/razors, then a MM is a bad idea. If you are going with a 10 man squad (especially with vulkan), I think it is one of the better choices.

Your two tac squads will be in Drop Pods arriving late in the game. If they are far from the action, it was your fault, not the list.

Multimeltas on tacs from drop pods is 100% ok. You are dropping in the heart of the enemy, so the 24" is ample.

Seriously bro, typhoons are just the absolute spacecake.

Really, a HB/HB speeder has 6 ap4 shots. That's 4 hits, let's say 4 wounds. A typhoon has 2 small blasts, 2-4 hits if the opponent spaces very well. If he bunches up after a tank shock, or even voluntarily, sky's the limit to how many hits. This is before considering a typhoon also has a HB.

A typhoon can fire its HB and frags after moving 12", while the HB tornado can't go past 6. Worth the 20pts yet? How about when, to fire a HB you need to be within range of...

-multi-lasers
-plasma cannons
-heavy bolters
-all manner of filthy xeno weapons that I haven't even read the codex of because I'm not a heretic
-Anything with a 48" range that is positioned up to 12" behind your target

...and a typhoon can fire frags from 48"? This is without even mentioning they have 2 kraks per boat. That you can also fire alongside the HB (that they also have) if you *really* want to.

You know how in Sweden we have a type of ice cream that's shaped like a boat? Yeah. In 40k, that boat is a typhoon. In 40k, when it's a space marine's birthday, his birthday cake is a typhoon. Once, two space marines were standing outside a pastry shop, and the sergeant said to the other: I'll stand watch while you go and get us two of the worst pastries they make. When the marine came back with two typhoons, the sergeant looked confused so the marine said: I know you said to get the worst, but I felt like you must have meant the best, so I got typhoons. Typhoons are the ultramarines of land speeders.

I think I've made my feelings on typhoons clear by now.

If not, say we get 3 HB/HB speeders. Dropping telion and his launcher is enough to make them typhoons. This trades 1 missile per turn (albeit at a higher BS), for up to 6 missiles per turn, depending on how many you need on horde control. /drunk rant

Best part? Your scouts are still a useful unit. Get typhoons.

Your list looks fine from a horde perspective dude. HB Speeders will do pretty much squat to most horde armies you face and the amount of cover available these days.

I think you're perfectly fine from a horde perspective. And MM Tac squads in a SM list is perfectly fine too----you'll just need to keep in mind area of coverage when you drop them (So their 24" bubbles have a wide coverage and little overlap)

Grey Templar wrote:Go ahead and keep the Multi-melta.

see how many times you actually get to use it to full effect.


also keep track of how a missile launcher would preform in the same space(that Rhino that was waaayy out of range and was able to contest the final objective because you had nothing to shoot at it)

In a Vulkan pod list? It performs better than a ML. I drop somewhere near, shoot with Meltagun (most likely within Melta range). If the vehicle survives, it moves 6 (or 12). Moving 6 is still with MM 12" range (and still within the range of the meltagun). Moving 12, you can still shoot it with a Str8 shot. An ML is Str 8, no? If it moves flat-out.... why are you hunting fast vehicles with a melta anyway?

Also take note that the MM is twin-linked. ML is not.


To the others, I have neglected the fact that the typhoon fires two missiles (always thought, since I haven't used them or *gasp* faced them that they only fire one missile each). That's my bad. So yeah, I guess they'll perform better against infantry. And I guess HB/HB speeders are not really that great. SO, we narrowed down the possible choices. I also do think that Whirlwinds wouldn't work much, but I guess I just want to give it a whirl (pun NOT intended) first. Now choices are:

a) two Dakka Preds (durable as hell, not to mention versatile)
b) two Typhoons (veeeery versatile)
c) TFC and Dakka Pred (cover save for scouts, anti-personnel from both)
d) TFC and one Typhoon? (glass cannons unite!)