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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 04:10:30
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Been Around the Block
Deptford, New Jersey
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I recently played a game with a very experienced player who told me that rue line sight of sight means that ripper swarms are too small to confer cover saves to units behind them. He also told me that grots can't give cover saves to ork units behind them. Now the ripper swarm thing I am willing to agree on, but the grots question concerns me because I know ork players such as myself do this all the time. I personally feel that grots are big enough to give cover saves to oks as they obscure at least half the ork models shooting through them. But the question is, is my opponent perhaps over articulating the rules in this instance or am I giving diminutive grots too much credit? What role does TLOS paly in this matter in the opinion of other experienced dakkites?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 04:17:17
Subject: Re:True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Smokin' Skorcha Driver
Tucson, Arizona
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Pg. 21 of the BRB "If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models, it receives a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain." I would say with grots that you would get a cover save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 04:19:57
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Malicious Mandrake
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Obscured doesn't count for infantry, that is only for vehicle cover saves. However, it states in the BRB that if you are shooting through another unit, they grant a cover save. so you would have to get down behind the model and look. If a SM was firing at the orks through the Grots, I would say yes, because they are tall enough to block some of the model. Ripper swarms no, because you would have to be aiming at the feet. However, if a Dreadnought was shooting at the Orks, I would say no to the grots due to the dread being taller, hence no screening effect from TLOS. Make sense? It all basically depends on the height of the model shooting, the height of the intervening model, and the height of the model being shot at.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 04:20:39
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Fixture of Dakka
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ghazwaagh34 wrote:I recently played a game with a very experienced player who told me that rue line sight of sight means that ripper swarms are too small to confer cover saves to units behind them. He also told me that grots can't give cover saves to ork units behind them. Now the ripper swarm thing I am willing to agree on, but the grots question concerns me because I know ork players such as myself do this all the time. I personally feel that grots are big enough to give cover saves to oks as they obscure at least half the ork models shooting through them. But the question is, is my opponent perhaps over articulating the rules in this instance or am I giving diminutive grots too much credit? What role does TLOS paly in this matter in the opinion of other experienced dakkites?
It's a "it depends" scenario. Irrespective of how you feel about the INAT FAQ in general, Yakface made a couple of perfect pictures on pg. 5 to show exactly what can happen. Short version (pun intended): if you want your grots and/or rippers to give cover all the time, make sure your units are snugged up close behind them. Otherwise, a taller or elevated unit may be able to see OVER the intervening units, without having to draw LoS THROUGH them. Galador wrote:Ripper swarms no, because you would have to be aiming at the feet. GW's rippers stand as tall as most of the grot models, actually.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/03/14 04:22:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 04:30:49
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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TLOS again. It would depend on whether the rippers obscure any part of the other model. If they do, then cover save. Itdoesn't have to be 50% (that's vehicles) just blocking a totally clear view. Rippers placed right, or using a convenient piece of scenery to elevate themselves can give cover to anything below MC or vehicle size.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 05:28:07
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Galador wrote:Obscured doesn't count for infantry, that is only for vehicle cover saves. However, it states in the BRB that if you are shooting through another unit, they grant a cover save. so you would have to get down behind the model and look. If a SM was firing at the orks through the Grots, I would say yes, because they are tall enough to block some of the model. Ripper swarms no, because you would have to be aiming at the feet. However, if a Dreadnought was shooting at the Orks, I would say no to the grots due to the dread being taller, hence no screening effect from TLOS. Make sense? It all basically depends on the height of the model shooting, the height of the intervening model, and the height of the model being shot at.
This explanation is somewhat confused.
'Obscured' is not a term that applies specifically to vehicles. All models gain a cover save by being obscured from the point of view of the firer. The difference with vehicles and MCs lies in how much of the model has to be out of sight before it counts as being obscured... whereas infantry gain a cover save if they are even the slightest bit obscured.
So the Grots provide a cover save either by physically obscuring the Boyz behind them, or by having the firer's LOS pass through (rather than over) the Grots unit... as in the LOS passes through the space between the Grot models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 20:35:29
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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While yes it is true that if something can't be seen fully it is obscured, "Obscured" is a vehicle specific rule stating that if said vehicle is blocked from sight by 50% or more from the firer it gets a cover save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 20:41:29
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Shas'o Mann wrote:While yes it is true that if something can't be seen fully it is obscured, "Obscured" is a vehicle specific rule stating that if said vehicle is blocked from sight by 50% or more from the firer it gets a cover save.
Except, as I just pointed, it's not.
'Obscured' is a general term for something that is partially hidden from sight. The 'Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets' rule requires 50% of the vehicle to be covered in order for it to count as obscured... but 'Obscured' is not a term specific to vehicles in the rules. Have a look at the first line of the 'When are models in cover?' section on page 21.
*Edit for spelling. 'Behicles'...?!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/15 02:11:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 21:06:31
Subject: Re:True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Been Around the Block
Deptford, New Jersey
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So I take it TLOS has lead to endless hours of debate, hopefully civil debate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 21:10:14
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Galador wrote:Ripper swarms no, because you would have to be aiming at the feet.
If an intervening model covers part of the foot of a model in the target unit then that model is in cover.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/14 22:10:24
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Janthkin, Insaniak, Scott-S6 are exactly right.
If the intervening unit physically obscures the unit behind AT ALL*, and/or LOS is traces at all BETWEEN the models in the intervening unit, cover applies.
If, from the firing unit's models' eye view, they can see completely (head to toe) the target unit OVER an intervening unit, cover does not apply.
(*note that Monstrous Creatures and vehicles work differently.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/15 00:32:13
Subject: Re:True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Been Around the Block
Deptford, New Jersey
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Thanks to all affirming that good things can come in little grot packages. The more you play the more you learn right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/15 00:50:00
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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insaniak wrote:Shas'o Mann wrote:While yes it is true that if something can't be seen fully it is obscured, "Obscured" is a vehicle specific rule stating that if said vehicle is blocked from sight by 50% or more from the firer it gets a cover save.
Except, as I just pointed, it's not.
'Obscured' is a general term for something that is partially hidden from sight. The 'Behicles and Cover - Obscured Targets' rule requires 50% of the vehicle to be covered in order for it to count as obscured... but 'Obscured' is not a term specific to vehicles in the rules. Have a look at the first line of the 'When are models in cover?' section on page 21.
I just reread it, you win.
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My dice always hate me.
Fear the Future. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/15 02:12:14
Subject: Re:True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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ghazwaagh34 wrote:So I take it TLOS has lead to endless hours of debate, hopefully civil debate.
Not as much in this edition as the last couple, since the rules are a lot simpler and less confusing this time around.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/16 09:39:32
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Far less arguments about cover / no cover in 5th ed compared to 4th. The "virtual" TLOS using levels some of the time, and not others, and people incorrectly classifying every last thing on the table as "area" terrain (including hills, sigh) in 4th were a huge pain.
5th ed is a lot simpler, and flows a lot faster as a result.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/16 10:25:46
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Stormin' Stompa
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There would be far far FAR less arguments about TLOS if more people were able to put 4th edition behind them and concentrate on what the rules in 5th actually say. The emotional baggage of 4th is huge in this case. I have actually heard a few people argue that is was a difficult and too hard to bend over the table and get a models-point-of-view.  
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/16 10:26:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/16 10:46:03
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Quick question somewhat related. If a squadron of Killa Kans were spaced out to their full 6 inches in front of 30 boyz, would they be providing cover to all of them even though the kanz themselves would only be covering about a third?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/16 10:47:50
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Assuming the enemy is shooting THROUGH the unit of Kans, yes. Same as any other unit. Not sure what you mean "their full 6"", as squadrons can have a maximum seperation of 4" from each other.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/16 11:33:24
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Ah, my mistake on the 4" cohesion. Thanks for the clarification though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 00:18:51
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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I thought ripper swarms (along necron scarabs, and nurglings), have the swarm USR, meaning they could never provide any kind of coversave to anything.
regardless, i have a homedepot lazer level (the one that projects a bright red line across any surface) to quickly settle any LoS and TLOS debates in my games, and the qay i have played (and been forced to play):
while a unit of Grots, for example, obscures your boys from being shot it, they also obscure my units from your boys. IIRC only models within a unit/squadron can draw LoS and TLOS through each other
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/18 00:19:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 00:38:05
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Anidem wrote:while a unit of Grots, for example, obscures your boys from being shot it, they also obscure my units from your boys. IIRC only models within a unit/squadron can draw LoS and TLOS through each other
It entirely depends on TLOS from the models eyes.
There can be instances where the orks could see over the grotz, without having their LOS obscured and without having to trace LOS Through the grot unit.
My personnal favorite is that 2 tightly packed wraithguard are sufficiently tall/wide enough to provide cover to the old style metal wraithlords (dont have a new one to try it out) But as the lord is so tall it can usually gain a clear LOS over the wraithguard. (Although wraith units technically don't have eyes...)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 00:48:39
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Anidem wrote:I thought ripper swarms (along necron scarabs, and nurglings), have the swarm USR, meaning they could never provide any kind of coversave to anything.
Go reread "Swarms." They're only prohibited from providing cover to MCs and vehicles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 01:16:19
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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Janthkin wrote:Anidem wrote:I thought ripper swarms (along necron scarabs, and nurglings), have the swarm USR, meaning they could never provide any kind of coversave to anything.
Go reread "Swarms." They're only prohibited from providing cover to MCs and vehicles.
ah, thanks for that
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 16:27:47
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Squishy Squig
Lima - Peru
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Galador wrote:Obscured doesn't count for infantry, that is only for vehicle cover saves. However, it states in the BRB that if you are shooting through another unit, they grant a cover save. so you would have to get down behind the model and look. If a SM was firing at the orks through the Grots, I would say yes, because they are tall enough to block some of the model. Ripper swarms no, because you would have to be aiming at the feet. However, if a Dreadnought was shooting at the Orks, I would say no to the grots due to the dread being taller, hence no screening effect from TLOS. Make sense? It all basically depends on the height of the model shooting, the height of the intervening model, and the height of the model being shot at.
That is not correct IMHO, Ripper swarm, smaller or not than the Gretchins are ANOTHER UNIT and they DO give a cover save if somebody shoot a unit behind them, unless some other special rule says I am wrong. If you shoot to a unit that is behind another unit then this first one gets a cover save... at least that is LITERALLY what the BRB says.
Now with the dread is completely different because the dread is a "vehicle" and vehicles have their own rules when it comes to cover and it needs to be obscured by something big enough to cover at least 50% of its structure in order to get a cover save. Reason why, gretchins cannot give cover to a Dread, not because the're gretchins and they are small, but because they dont cover 50% of the dread.
And True Line of sight has nothing to do with cover saves, TLoS is a method that allows you to shoot at ANYTHING THAT CAN BE SEEN, if the target has or not a cover save thats another story, but TLoS allows to shoot thru windows and walls and little holes on the wrecks and stuff like that, if you can see at least the foot of the miniature you can shoot at it... with a super-cover save but YOU CAN! and thats what matters..
Now, answering the OP, yes buddy, Grotz WILL give you a cover save since they are being used as a shield-unit to the boyz (a tactic as old as the game itself) , even to the shoots from the Dread, 'cause he'll be shooting thru the gretchins to aim the boyz behind anyway. Read the cover save entry in the rulebook to clarify this completely, but I'm 100% I'm correct.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/18 16:34:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 18:36:07
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Lawndale
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The unit must still qualify for cover on a model by model basis. The ripper swarm may grant cover to a single model, or a few of them, depending on LoS, but you need to have at least 50% of the models in cover to count for cover.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 18:53:49
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Squishy Squig
Lima - Peru
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axeman1n wrote:The unit must still qualify for cover on a model by model basis. The ripper swarm may grant cover to a single model, or a few of them, depending on LoS, but you need to have at least 50% of the models in cover to count for cover.
Not necesarilly, that is why I tell you, check on the rulebook, I am sure it doesnt say anything about the size of the unit in front, it only says "if a unit is in front". I have to check this anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/03/18 19:00:03
Subject: True Line of sight, do grots give saves?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Does you LOS pass *through* the unit in front? If so you will give a cover save (to infantry and similar)
There is nothing about "if a unit is in front" that isnt qualified by "your LOS has to pass THROUGH the unti in front"
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