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econtutor wrote:After reading through yet another "X faction rumor thread" I'm walking away baffled. Why the heck doesn't GW just come out and say what the heck they're working on... I can think of no other company that is so secretive about what's in the pipeline when it comes to releases.

When it comes to a release schedules, video game manufacturers, movie studios, other mini manufacturers, pretty much any other entertainment product I buy, the manufacturer lets the customer know what's coming out far before its release date. I'm curious why do you think GW tends to buck this trend? Why do they keep their future release schedule so secretive?

The ONLY reason I can think of is that the secrecy prevents customers from delaying purchases until new models are released. If true, this is a pretty S&%$^ reason, I'd be pissed if I dropped cash on a new army and two months later the rules and models for it were completely redone!

GW isn't a video game manufacturer or a movie studio. Video game manufacturer's and movie studios have a lot of serious competition from other video game manufacturer's and movie studios. GW simply doesn't have that kind of competition as a mini's manufacturer,and don't have to hype their products a year in advance in order to sell them. The little guys do,because they are all basically fighting for a slice of GW's pie. In the mini's game buisness,make no mistake,it's GW's pie.

In GW's case,it's actually counterproductive to hype releases too far in advance. Take 40k,for example. It's not really a single product line. It's 16 different product lines[Space Marines,Blood Angels,Dark Angels,Black Templars,Space Wolves,Grey Knights,Imperial Guard,Witch Hunters,Eldar,Dark Eldar,Chaos Space Marines,Chaos Daemons,Orks,Tau,Necrons,and Tyranids] all competing for the 40k player base's dollars. Advance hype on GW's website for the next army does next to nothing to GROW that player base. Instead,it has their player base hording money for future releases rather than spending money on products that are currently available. You may think that GW will get their money either way,but things happen and people can be fickle with their entertainment dollars. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that,and there is no guarantee that GW will see those dollars.

What we have also seen as being the trend for GW regarding lines that are being completely redone,like DH/GK,WH/SoB,and DE,is that GW pulls those old mini's off the shelves over a year before the new line comes out and puts them in mail order only status to prevent somebody from making a brand new army and then getting completely boned a couple of months later.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What Yak says about GW might be true if not for the fact that Forge World and the Black Library do exactly the opposite – news on upcoming releases, promotions, previews, sneak peeks, and so on. They also show up to trade shows and events to promote their own wares.

GW does none of this, and as I’ve said before in a similar discussion, if the small areas of your company are getting it right, how come the whole body can’t get it right?

Because Black Library and Forge World offer different product lines than GW's core does,and a marketing strategy that is effective for one line is not neccessarily effective with another product line? Heck,General Electric owns NBC,so should they be trying to sell dishwashers and refridgerators with the same strategies they use to sell TV advertising? Or the marketing strategies Honda uses to sell it's Infiniti car line will also apply to their line of lawnmowers? Subsidiaries within a company are USUALLY marketed differently to appeal to different groups. That's why Cadillac is marketed differently than Chevy. That's why you see tough,burly guys in pickup truck commercials,not female fashion models.

I'm by no means saying that GW is beyond question,but it's also very easy to play armchair CEO on a message board. As a publicly traded company,"getting it right" means making the most $ for the company. If GW's shareholders and financial analysts feel that their sales aren't as strong as they should be due to their tight lipped marketing practices,then they will change their marketing practices. Obviously,they don't feel that's the case.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:See earlier in the thread Forest Fire.

Got stung by buying an Orcs and Goblins Army Book only to find it was obsolete less than 6 months later.
This doesn't get GW 2 books sold because I am not impressed and won't buy the new one. It does not make me feel inclined to buy any others either.

If I had some definite idea that the O&G were going to have a makeover I would have most likely bagged the new one even with the price increase.

Not to get sidetracked about any specific item btw. The anecdote is an example how customers can potentially get hacked off with the policy of being ill informed. Pops digging into my wallet for little Jimmy Tinwhistle is not likely to be any more impressed.

Not saying that some people don't get honked off when something like that happens. However,90+% of people will pony up the money to pick up the new book instead of having hundreds of dollars of mini's sitting around that they can hardly play with because they don't have the current book. If you decide to sell your army,then GW will still get their book sale off the person you sell your army to,anyways. The only way GW doesn't get their 2nd sale is if you just sit on the army and keep it in mothballs somewhere forever[or until the Warhammer Fantasy line ends completely].

Another question is,just how long does a book have to be current for before people feel ripped off? There's no set answer to that question,and everybody's different. For some people,if GW opened up a 1 year rumor window,and they're book was invalidated after 60 weeks,they'd feel ripped off. On the other hand,some people are fine with a 3-4 month window,and feel that they will get enough use out of the book in that time period.

filbert wrote:Actually, Lanrak summed it up quite succintly in one of the other frequent threads that crop up about GW business practice:

Lanrak wrote:
Just looking at the financials for GW in the mid to late 1990s.

When GW supported all thier games (board and SGs,) and 40k was a large skirmish game of 2nd ed.
1995 to 1998, GW plc turn over rose from 30 to 60 million pounds!
DOUBLED their turn over in 3 years.(When they focused on gamers and game support.)

After the 'rushed hatchet job' of 3rd ed 40k ,turn over growth slowed down a bit, 60 million to 78 ,million from 1998 to 2000.
GW turn over rose from 78 million to 98 million at the start of the LoTR 'bubble,' 2000 to 2001.

GW plc period of greatest growth was when they actively supported and promoted a wide range of games to appeal to a wide range of gamers.

Since GW plc has declared it self to be '...in the business of selling toy soldiers to kiddies...' they have lost sales volumes year on year.
And now even their massive price increases can not make up the shortfall in sales volumes.

GW plc are in serious trouble , they can not make the radical changes required to secure long term growth without loosing short term revenue.

TTFN.

Falling sales has been an issue for GW long before the Global Financial crisis. This problem has thus far been masked firstly by the so-called LOTR bubble and subsequently by a round of cost-cutting and price hikes, but as anyone will tell you, this is not a sustainable model for growth.

You realize that if you have a dollar to your name,and you're walking down the street and you find another dollar,then you've just doubled your money? It doesn't mean you're well off,it just means you have a good financial growth rate.

It's much easier to show a good growth rate when you're a small company with relatively little. It's substantially easier to double 30 million than it is to double 60 or 90 million,especially in a niche industry like the hobby/gaming industry.

The other issue with this entire discussion is that most of us Dakkaite's are not looking at the issue objectively. Most of us[myself included] want to know what GW has in the pipe,so we try to rationalize their current financial downturn as it's because of a lack of teasers and such,and not because of numerous other possible factors[like their failed retail chain,for example]. When you walk into an analysis and already have your conclusion,then you're really not being objective.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:There are two aspects to the discussion, Whatever.
There is the part that is about cash and profits and sales.

And there is the part that is about communication, public relations and goodwill.
The latter is more subjective by nature and imho this is the aspect that needs addressing here.
The question is, why don't GW provide information about forthcoming releases?
There has still not been a convincing reason, other than they can and it is good for shareholders.

That is probably true Snurl, but the same or longer for other products and the companies can give some details out months in advance.

Am still unconvinced the policy is necessary

GW does provide information about upcoming releases. It's just that it's 2 months ahead of time instead of 1 year+ ahead of time like most of us would like.

The thing that I don't understand is why people feel put off because GW doesn't announce what they're doing 1+ years ahead of time.

For example,I drive Ford's[just like my father and my grandfather]. I've never purchased a car made by another manufacturer. Should I be angry at Ford because they haven't sent me an e-mail with their plans for their 2013 model line,then? Most of us would say that's an irrational emotion,and we're talking about a purchase as major as a car,not toy soldiers. I don't understand the sense of entitlement to this information from GW that other people have,and thusly don't understand why they get upset about it.

I've been a GW customer since the launch of 3rd ed 40k in '98. I currently have 5 armies,and I've had a total of 7 different armies. My expectation from GW is that they provide a quality product equal to the price I'm paying for it,and if there's and issue,they rectify the situation. By and large,I have gotten my money's worth in enjoyment out of their products,and the two times I had an issue with missing parts in a blister/kit,they fixed it quickly and with no cost to me and no hassle. That's not saying I think GW is perfect,because it's certainly not,and it definately has room to improve in several areas,IMO[fluctuating power levels between codex writers and slowness in getting mini's produced/armies updated are at the top of my list],but I get what I expect as a customer out of GW when I purchase their products.

I realize that GW used to be a lot looser with their plans,and that's built up a sense of entitlement within the community,but I personally feel it's silly. For example,in one of my former workplaces,we would order Jimmy John's subs on occassion. Also,on occassion,Jimmy John's would show up with some free subs for everybody. Pretty sweet,right? That helps build up that goodwill you were talking about,obviously. Then,we stopped getting free subs when a new manager took over the store. Now,there's two ways I could look at the situation. First,I could be passive aggressive and not buy Jimmy John's and complain to anybody that would listen to me about them,or I could come to the understanding that I had no right to free subs to begin with,that it was very nice of them to give us free subs in the past,and that they still make a good sub for the money and get Jimmy John's.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is not about entitlement though, that is overstating the point. There is a fair and legitimate question, why do GW choose to not to make announcements, and prefer to wrap releases up in secrecy?

It is not irrational to want to be kept informed so as to make purchasing decisions. That to me seems very reasonable. Snap buying new shiney stuff that has been kept under wraps is irrational.
If development is 2-3 years as stated it cannot be beyong the wit of good organisational skills to make a provisional announcement in advance.

I am fairly new to GW. So the comment about how they may have acted in the past is not relevant in my case.
However, coming from other hobbies where firms do widely publish up an coming products, and have even been known to delay release when it has been pointed out there is a fault with the test shot (though by no means is this always the case) then I am frankly perplexed to see GW behave in the manner in which the do.
Quite frankly it is the acceptance of business practices, that would not be tolerated in other sectors, is irrational.

As a customer I do however feel entitled to being treated as an adult, even if I am buying toy soldiers.

With respect your analogy of the Ford is not really valid. If you go to the Ford website I would be surprised if future projects are not to be found.
Futhermore I would expect there to be a facility for email newsletters including new products if you wanted them.
What is it about GW discussions and bloody motorcar analogies!

there you go
http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/FutureVehicles/Overview/mdp=i1204953017896
http://www.automotive.com/future-cars/01/ford/index.html
Sure there will be similar for the US market

The question still remains unanswered.
Why do GW not stop playing games and just tell us wassup Doc?

Ford's US site does not have links to future products[at least not so far as I can find]. Your Ford UK link isn't working for me,currently. The US and UK markets are different,and what works in one market will not neccessarily work in the other. Your second link is to a third party,the equivalent of what Dakka is to GW.

Ultimately,your question has already been answered. It's not best for GW's buisness,or at least not what's best for them as determined by their marketing staff,executives,and shareholders.

As for an informed decision,GW shows pictures of their models at least a month in advance under it's preorders section. A month isn't long enough to look at a model and decide whether to buy it or not based on it's aesthetic value and/or in-game abilities[if the book for the model is available]?

The issue with sharing more information with the consumers is that it only builds goodwill towards the company so long as the consumers are hearing what they WANT to hear. Delays tick customers off,and when stuff is announced well in advance,it costs GW money. For example,GW comes out and says "We're currently focusing on Tau and plan to have them ready for a Q4 2011 release." People who are planning a Tau army decide to hold off on buying them until Q4. However,problems happen,and Tau become the 40k version of "Nuke Nukem Forever,"and get pushed back over and over again for a variety of reasons. Then instead of being mad at GW for not giving them the information,they are mad at GW for MIS-information,complaining along a variety of tangents like "Tau got pushed back for more Spesss Mahreens AGAIN!" People who could be happily playing with Tau armies and making money for GW are instead po'd with the wait and/or waiting to see if Tau get squatted or not while not buying anything. Not to mention the fact that their competitors can beat them to the punch with similarly themed products,or worse yet,beat them to the patent/copyright office. "Bootleg" companies,like Chapterhouse,for instance,will be able to their own versions of the Dreadknight or whatever ready to drop when the GK codex does.

Another issue is that you keep saying why shouldn't GW be more free with their information,but not really giving much of an argument as for why they should.