A New take on the Grey "Knights"

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**MechaEmperor7000**

Ok so it may not be a "new" take, but I was thinking of using Empire Knights on round 40mm bases to represent a GK terminator army. Just throwing ideas out there (as I may never actually get to do this, with the thousands of other conversion ideas which are far more plausable) but we were drawing horses today in class and I thought this may be interesting. It will not be straight up mounting the knights on 40mm bases, as that would be cheese cubed. The knights themselves will feature actual GK terminator equipment, making them a sort of Techno-medieval knights (like using GK weaponry and possibly have portions of GK shoulderpads and armor here and there).

Fluff wise, these can be actual Inquisitors riding on Horses, gaining a toughness bonus similar to that of TWCs (which explains why they're T4 instead of T3). The reason the knights still move as infantry is because the horses they ride are barded with heavy armor, rendering the knights unable to move at high speeds. The Inquisitor part is to justify how they can use psychic powers. They're more or less acolytes than true inquisitors.

Similarly I was thinking of using Empire Greatswords for PAGKs. They will also get the same modifications as the Mounted Knights and WYSIWYG weapons if they do mount them.

These would be, in my mind, great count-as Grey Knights in an Inquisitor-based army, as their appearance is more akin to an inquisitorial force than a GK force. One of the main problems with a pure Inquisitorial force is the lack of dedicated support, resulting in the need of GKs. This way they wouldnt break the aesthetic, as well as not break your wallet.

Some problems with this however is the Empire Knights themselves, whose horses are fairly monoposed. The Chaos Knights are much more dynamic for a comparable price, but evidently they are Chaos (although someone handy with a file and GS might be able to get away with it). Bretonnian knights are similarly monoposed and have less of an appearance of armor (although in-game they do have it) so it might not be good to go justifying that they are slowed down by barding.

So, would you allow this or not? And any suggestions would be welcomed.

**Chowderhead**

The fluff would have to be better than the fluff in the GK book (Which judging by Drago will be easy), and you will have to nail a paintjob, but I'd let you do it.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I tried doing a similar thing with Chaos Knights as Chaos Terminators, but my friend pointed out Chaos has Bikers, so they fit there more than as Terminators. "Chaos did it" is always a better excuse than anythign the imperium can come up with though, hence why I'm even more iffy on this.

**Clang**

Modellingwise it sounds cool, but you're making up rules for them (at least, i presume there are no bikers or cavalry in the GK codex) so you'll only ever be able to use them in friendly games. Have you considered using foot knights instead?

**MechaEmperor7000**

I'm not making up rules for them. I'll be using the Mounted Knights as GK Terminators, while the Greatswords are PAGKs.

**sailense**

The only issue I'd have is that there are rules for cavalry, and I'd have to keep reminding myself that they were Termies.

**Clang**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I'm not making up rules for them. I'll be using the Mounted Knights as GK Terminators, while the Greatswords are PAGKs.

The be prepared for a lot of Line-of-Sight arguments, as Mounted Knights are rather bigger than GK Terminators :(

**ph34r**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:So, would you allow this or not? And any suggestions would be welcomed.

No. Not even a little bit. This is a terrible idea. (In my opinion)
EDIT: To clarify, this is the most of a stretch I have seen someone try to count-as, maybe even surpassing the "These Admech skitarii count as Daemons or Dark Eldar or Space Marines or Space Wolves or Inquisition" guy. I would not play you.

Suggestion: take a look at the Rough Rider entry. See how it is not the same as a Grey Knight Terminator?
Then, think about how much work you would have to do to make them WYSIWYG.

**MechaEmperor7000**

ph34r wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:So, would you allow this or not? And any suggestions would be welcomed.
No. Not even a little bit. This is a terrible idea. (In my opinion)
EDIT: To clarify, this is the most of a stretch I have seen someone try to count-as, maybe even surpassing the "These Admech skitarii count as Daemons or Dark Eldar or Space Marines or Space Wolves or Inquisition" guy. I would not play you.

Suggestion: take a look at the Rough Rider entry. See how it is not the same as a Grey Knight Terminator?
Then, think about how much work you would have to do to make them WYSIWYG.

Hence the barded, beefier warhorses (if you look at the Roughriders, they're riding noticably smaller horses than the barded warhorses of empire knights and Chaos Knights), actual GKT weapons, Full, head to toe armor. This is also why I wanted to try this with Chaos Knights. Stats wise, Chaos Knights are fairly close to actual Space Marine Terminators, especially since the barded warhorse actually grants them a 2+ armor save (1+ actually). The only difference is a 2 inch worth of movement and a ranged weapon (which can be easily added on).

**ph34r**

You are assuming that stats translate directly from 40k to fantasy.

This is horribly wrong. A bolter is not as strong as an empire rifle. A chaos knight is not as strong as a genetically modified space marine. Steel fullplate with shield is not as strong as terminator armor from the year 40,000.

A Chaos Knight is nowhere near appropriate for modeling a GKT.
An Empire Knight is even more futilely underwhelming for a GKT.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Well "sorry" for trying to think outside of the box. I did mention they're Inquisitors, and why there's an improved Stats (the horses, again). Plus it wouldnt be simple steel plates for the armor fluff wise, it'd be ceramite armor, the same kind worn by other Inquisitors that actually doubes as Power armor while only covering their torsos.

To take your own example of a Roughrider comparison to a Terminator: Rough Riders are mongols wearing heavy leather (at best) riding on a tiny horse with no armor. These are Artificer-clad Inquisitors riding upon enhanced warhorses bred for combat (but not speed), covered in the same plated artificer armor as their riders. The increased toughness and strength are due to the horse's strength added in, and the decrease in speed compared to the roughriders is because they're not only wearing artificer armor, they're carrying someone wearing said armor too.

Also, by your logic that means that Imperial Guardsmen are significantly stronger than Empire Troops, as they are both normal, unmodified humans and both share the same stats. Hell even Conscripts, people who were literally pulled out of the population forcefully, are stronger than knights and much mroe skilled.

Some constructive advice would be nice. Apart from the roughrider part (which really isnt a suggestion either, since rough riders have no real armor on them nor their horses, which was a big point in my argument for this conversion) you've just been putting down my ideas.

Anyone else with actual, constructive criticism and/or alternatives for Inquisitor-based Terminator Count-As?

**RanTheCid**

The theme of a medieval type GK force is a good one, but I don't think Empire figures are the best foundation. As ph34r implied - the figure size is wrong. Chaos Warriors are the right size, but their static pose makes for a difficult starting point. It might work with Chaos bodies with Empire heads and about a 50% re-sculpt.

**Breotan**

I wouldn't swap out Empire stuff for PAGK or TAGK but Empire troops and/or knights could make an interesting conversion base for the human warriors that Inquisitors can take. Sort of like the Swiss Guard that you see at the Vatican.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Clang was the one who implied a size issue, ph34r was more on the side of flaming than anything else, but yes I can see a size issue. Chaos Warriors will probably work better for PAGKs, but I still need a TAGK alternative for this idea (still thinking about the horse).

Empire Greatswords seem like they would be awesome for Crusaders. The only problem is they dont come with shields (although these should be easy to loot from somewhere or direct order from GW).

**ph34r**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Well "sorry" for trying to think outside of the box. I did mention they're Inquisitors, and why there's an improved Stats (the horses, again). Plus it wouldnt be simple steel plates for the armor fluff wise, it'd be ceramite armor, the same kind worn by other Inquisitors that actually doubes as Power armor while only covering their torsos.

To take your own example of a Roughrider comparison to a Terminator: Rough Riders are mongols wearing heavy leather (at best) riding on a tiny horse with no armor. These are Artificer-clad Inquisitors riding upon enhanced warhorses bred for combat (but not speed), covered in the same plated artificer armor as their riders. The increased toughness and strength are due to the horse's strength added in, and the decrease in speed compared to the roughriders is because they're not only wearing artificer armor, they're carrying someone wearing said armor too.

Also, by your logic that means that Imperial Guardsmen are significantly stronger than Empire Troops, as they are both normal, unmodified humans and both share the same stats. Hell even Conscripts, people who were literally pulled out of the population forcefully, are stronger than knights and much mroe skilled.

Some constructive advice would be nice. Apart from the roughrider part (which really isnt a suggestion either, since rough riders have no real armor on them nor their horses, which was a big point in my argument for this conversion) you've just been putting down my ideas.

Anyone else with actual, constructive criticism and/or alternatives for Inquisitor-based Terminator Count-As?

"Sorry" for "flaming" your idea, but it sucks. A lot. Honestly the core concept of your idea is basically irredeemable.

And no, by my logic IG are not stronger than empire troops. I said the scales are not the same. In 40k str 3 t3 represents basically every type of human aside from the super maximum strongest humans. In fantasy humans go up to s4 t4 without too much difficulty. Firearms in 40k are obviously stronger than fantasy, to think otherwise would be fully pants on head.
Also conscripts are normal human strength, I don't know what you are getting on about.

My constructive advice is to construct yourself a better idea. Outside of the box does not automatically equal viable, fluffy, cool looking, or good. This idea sucks.

**beingmad**

Spent a few years thinking about this post

**Joyous_Oblivion**

While ph34r has a horrible way of putting it, sometimes you do need to just realize an idea will not work and try something else.

Fantasy models work somewhat for Guard and Eldar if heavily converted, but not much anything else as they aren't the right scale.

If you bought all big beefy Chaos Lord models for every Grey Knight in power armour then it would be close enough (providing the weapons were all modelled WYSIWYG) but most else just looks odd.

Creativity is awesome, but in this case, you might need to go a different route. You did come here for feedback after all.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I did propose Chaos models before, but a certain someone shot that down too without offering an alternative. As Breotan mentioned above, I might use some of these ideas for other Inquisitorial units and look for other non-marine alternatives for GK-Stand ins. For me, the whole idea of Inquisitor cavalry riding on horses as techno-medieval knights is awesome, but there really isnt anything else in the GK book that fits this.

TBH I was thinking about moving away from the Knight idea until ph34r started flaming my idea like I was trying to ressurrect hitler. Crap idea may be crap, but I will still defend my ideas. And for the record ph34r, Oblivion and Breotan offered actual advice, you were downright flaming.

**ph34r**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:TBH I was thinking about moving away from the Knight idea until ph34r started flaming my idea like I was trying to ressurrect hitler. Crap idea may be crap, but I will still defend my ideas. And for the record ph34r, Oblivion and Breotan offered actual advice, you were downright flaming.

Just because I say that there is no good way to go about making medieval knights count-as the most heavily armed and armored elite troopers in the universe, does not mean that I hate you personally or anything stupid like that. I just recognize that there is no way to have un-genetically-modified, horse riding humans represent superhuman walking tanks.
My honest and whole-hearted suggestion is to try to think of something else for your cavalry theme. Space Wolves riding thunderwolves the size of rhinos go from str4 t4 to str5 t5. Perhaps if you were able to get a mount that is more thunderwolf size, a mount that would convey a large toughness boost and be credibly armored, your idea might fly. You could start from bloodcrushers and convert the mount to be imperial?

beingmad wrote:ph34r... you are full of gak

Always good to meet a fan!

**MechaEmperor7000**

Now why couldnt you have just said that some 4 posts ago?

Also, I've seen someone do a BT TWC count-as with Bretonnian warhorses, and is largely what inspired this idea, especially the "Count as T4" thing. Right now though I might take a look at buying some bionic parts to make the horses into Cyber-steeds, kinda like bikes with legs (and bikes do give toughness bonuses). Would that work?

**ph34r**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Now why couldnt you have just said that some 4 posts ago?

Also, I've seen someone do a BT TWC count-as with Bretonnian warhorses, and is largely what inspired this idea, especially the "Count as T4" thing. Right now though I might take a look at buying some bionic parts to make the horses into Cyber-steeds, kinda like bikes with legs (and bikes do give toughness bonuses). Would that work?

Because I was busy thinking of ways for which normal cavalry might be enough to represent +1str, +1t, and be armored enough to represent the best armor save in the game.
Additionally, TWC/BCs have consistent rules in that they are not built for speed, but a stat boost.

That Bretonnian idea sounds "cool" but definitely suited to a human statline, not a marine statline. There is a reason that marines only ever mount bikes or monstrous steeds, because there is no way in hell a normal horse, even a cybernetic one, would work.

A cybernetic horse might work for a basic marine's count-as-bike mount: it provides no bonuses to its rider, but it can support it and move quickly.

A cybernetic horse with a human rider would not boost the rider up to superhuman power, see: DKoK cavalry.

The only mounts in the game that would really fit this theme would be TWC or Bloodcrusher size mounts. I think it would actually be a really cool army if you managed to convert some Bloodcrushers to Imperial, and count them as GKT or Paladins.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I may just go full out and have an Inquisitor ride on a Cyber-dragon and use that as a Dreadknight instead. I need to find beefier horses for this conversion since the last thing we need is more car-sized wolf shenanigans.

EDIT: I may be able to convert a larger horse. I remember a few pieces of art in Final Fantasy where Odin rides on a 6 legged, almost steroid induced horse. A few Chaos Knights might be able to provide the pieces and the extra legs gives me room to sculpt more muscles, making them more TWC sized.

**ph34r**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I need to find beefier horses for this conversion since the last thing we need is more car-sized wolf shenanigans.

Have you seen the old 3rd-4th edition conversion of the Wolf Lord on a loyalist converted bloodcrusher?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Nope, got a link?

**Mannahnin**

I'm glad you guys have chilled out and made piece. Ph34r, your earlier posts were a little over the top from this moderator's eye view. Thanks for getting more constructive.

**ph34r**

I couldn't find the original coolminiornot page for it, but that is one of the images. That style + human rider would be a fair fit for a GKT.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I could take two Chaos Knight horses, file away all the mutations/chaos symbols, and merge them together into one 6 legged, beefy horse for the mount (note that this would probably make the horse juggernaut sized, at least in height and length. Bulk I can always do with more muscles). They would just be a different breed of horses that grew up on a deathworld and are prized for their ferocity and durabile hides. We have orange space orangutans in the Inq army so an exotic mount wouldnt be that far out of place?

Also, what are people's thoughts about an Inquisitor on Dragon for the DreadKnight?

**Mannahnin**

I could see a dragon-mounted model as a DK stand-in. As long as the height/LOS-profile are similar, it should work. Especially since (IIRC) DK move as Jump Infantry. Right? If not, the wings would be a problem.

I'm always pretty leery of cav or bikes standing in for any other type of unit, as they have such particular and distinct movement modes.

That said, your six (Odin's mount Sleipnir actually has eight legs)-legged Chaos Steed would be pretty comparable in size to a TW or BC, which should work.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Sleipnir differed in depiction in FF alot, however I really dont like the idea of a spider-horse (not to mention my Life drawing teacher is already going to kill me for butchering the horse's skeletal structure) so I think I'll stop at 6. Maybe the reason it moves slowly is because the middle legs keep getting tangled with it's front ones no?

As for the Dragons, if the DK does not have Jump Packs then I can just leave the wings off. I may also consider Griffons and Demi-gryphs for some variety (Inquisitors who have obtained these creatures must be very wealthy indeed, and would probably be an insult if they actually had the same mounts).

**ph34r**

Mannahnin wrote:I'm always pretty leery of cav or bikes standing in for any other type of unit, as they have such particular and distinct movement modes.

Yeah. That is why I so strongly recommended juggernaut type mounts over cavalry type mounts. A cavalry model definitely looks like it should gain speed, and not as much ferocity.

EDIT: And this is supported by all instances of these different mounts and rules in 40k. To do otherwise would be non-transparent for the opponent.