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As the new GK book is promised to be strong (some say broken, but that's up to debate), I was wondering what tricks Daemons have against the new book. Now I've heard that Daemons will get raped by the new GK. What I would like is some honest thought on what Daemons can field to give GK's a run for their money. Is there anything, I'd be hard pressed to think that GK can't lose to daemons.

I mean, it seems like GK were made to be some sort of über daemon-munching army. Draigo even gets S10 against them in CC. What tricks did Daemons have before?

I don't play daemons but I'm pretty familiar with the codex. I like the idea of flamers against GK because with low model count they may not be able to counter strike the flamers and you might get more than 1 round of shooting out of them. Though I suppose that depends on how mug coverage they have with Warpquake as you'll need to be close to flame.

Also, I expect few GK players to run tons of halberds on their troops. I6 Daemons seem like a good idea to me.

And Draigo is only one man. And he's insanely expensive. Id worry more other elements.

Don't forget about Blood collar of khorne. This little piece of wargear will gives a 2++ save against force weapons. While it probably won't be a game changer, this will make your Khorne Heralds and Bloodthirsters much harder to kill in CC.

The daemons used to get Without Number when fighting GK, I hope something similar is implemented again as a way to balance it out abit.

It really depends on the GK build. I've been wracking my brain and I think that Skarbrand with all slaanesh will be strong. Skarbrands reroll for the enemy doesn't matter because the G/Ks already have preferred enemy. Slaanesh speed lets you DS father away and avoid Warpquake. And for most things the best GKs can do is pay a premium to match you on initiative.

I haven't tried it out yet, but its really the strongest build I can think of.


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The bad side is lots of S5 storm bolters will tear the slaanesh demons up, so it's still not ideal, but it nuetralizes a lot of the G/Ks strengths.

Yeah grey knights are going to force you to start away from them due to warpquake, heaven forbid they stick that in a land raider and increase the radius that much, can take away invuls of your key models with their assassin and can match you in CC due to a 2+ unvul save plus wounding every attacking model on a 4+ before combat even starts with purifiers. Your best bets should be Slaneesh cavalry, (seekers I think they are called) bloodcrushers set up to abuse wound allocation, (min maxed of course, I don't think Grey knights ignore eternal warrior if they do your boned hardcore) You need to sit down and study the new codex, but this may be a massive uphill battle for you.

^This assumes that the GK player has paid for Warpquake and a Land Raider, an assassin, and Purifiers.

doubled wrote:Yeah grey knights are going to force you to start away from them due to warpquake, heaven forbid they stick that in a land raider and increase the radius that much, can take away invuls of your key models with their assassin and can match you in CC due to a 2+ unvul save plus wounding every attacking model on a 4+ before combat even starts with purifiers. Your best bets should be Slaneesh cavalry, (seekers I think they are called) bloodcrushers set up to abuse wound allocation, (min maxed of course, I don't think Grey knights ignore eternal warrior if they do your boned hardcore) You need to sit down and study the new codex, but this may be a massive uphill battle for you.

Deamon and Psyker are removed on a failed LD test, if take a unsaved wound from a Nemsis weapon. I don't remember the exact wording.

@Owain

Mine does

warpquake comes stock on strike squads, and seriously who isn't going to run any strike squads.

And generally I would be extatic is a G/K player took a land raider, less G/Ks with quake and other shenanigans

So would Flamers and Horrors be out? While I know GK's have good shooting, the amount of damage Flamers do at the least seems nice, though with Warpquake you'd have to be INSANELY lucky to DS close enough to get into position.

How about Plaguebearers? No Invuls still means that I get FNP, correct? Sure, slow as hell, but they can soak up the damage the Slaanesh demons couldn't.

GK are really starting to look stupidly hard for Daemons to beat, rather than an even and fun match like I hoped they would. /MEQ and Matt Ward haet.

my 120 daemonettes and skarbarand will do what they always do.....................charge

My thoughts are... assuming what i have heard about daemonic gifts being nullified is untrue... blessing of the blood god is going to be daemons best friend. Remember that all grey knights have force weapons, so in close combat... we get a 2++ save. Might be good to consider.

Unless of course they later FAQ to say that we only get the saves if they take the psychic test, but at the moment, this is how i am interpreting it. Khorne is going to be far better against Grey knights than before.

@Cryonicleech: I have heard that we still get out invulnerable saves.

Horrors... not sure why you need to get close with them.

Flamers I personally don't play as a suicide unit. People often forget that they are jump infantry, and can actually be useful in turns to come if you don't put them in a position to die...


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SweetLou wrote:my 120 daemonettes and skarbarand will do what they always do.....................charge

How do you not mishap with those daemonettes...?

I don't see many CD players around here, so when I do I like to watch the games. I can say I've never seen a CD player even come close to winning a game against a SM army running Null Zone, and I kind of expect the GK to be the same kind of situation

3 squads of interceptors (or just 2 combat squaded ones), 2 strike squads and first turn can pretty much force daemons to autoloose.

Even if they do make the table, if the Grey Knights get the charge, Psyk-Out Grenades ensure that all of the Daemons strike at I1.

It's not looking good for Daemons.

Kroot Loops wrote:I don't see many CD players around here, so when I do I like to watch the games. I can say I've never seen a CD player even come close to winning a game against a SM army running Null Zone, and I kind of expect the GK to be the same kind of situation

Well, in general, null zone isn't taken unless you plan on fighting an army with all invulnerable saves. Which means the rest of the army was also made as planned against daemons.

I haven't found issues against librarians with null zone if i take the fateweaver. Which i am guessing this person has not been. Bloodcrushers use their 3+ save along with wound allocation tricks. If the daemon player wasn't using those, it makes sense. If feinds are dropped close enough to get null zones and aren't dropped in cover, this daemon play is doing something wrong.

Shooting the unit with a librarian down isn't all that hard either if the librarian isn't in a landraider.

There are lots of ways to get around librarians. Don't assume the army sucks because there are those who can't figure out how to beat a certain list...

I am more afraid of dual lash daemon princes than librarians...

I mean dont like every GK have something against demons, not just Libbies?

I would think it would have to deal solely with gameplay, if you are able to position your units, and force the GK player to divide his army, then you may have a chance. As people have said Khorne demons seem to be better, and i would stay away from High I, i just think GK can get that too, and prob will due to their low model count, (they will want to kill everything first when they get the charge.)

maybe soulgrinders, they have Av right? i don't play demons, just against them a good amount haha, and GK have very little anti-tank.

A Vindicare will pop a Soul Grinder like only a Vindicare can.

Might want to change your thread title....it says tactics for the latter (meaning tactics for the GK to use against Daemons) which from what I can tell, shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Now, tactics for the former on the other hand...

(Sorry, I was just going through the forums and when I saw the thread title it really confused me )

Things like Heralds, Bloodthirsters, Daemon Princes, and BloodCrushers will really have to worry about things like Dreadknights, as the Dreadknights can negate the Collar of Khorn and Strength bonuses you may give them with their Dark Excommunication power.

Heavy Support is almost going to have to be either shooty Daemon Princes or Soul Grinders. This way they can drop a safe distance away (pray for 1st turn and no Coteaz) and get some shots off before the GK can start attacking.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:
Well, in general, null zone isn't taken unless you plan on fighting an army with all invulnerable saves. Which means the rest of the army was also made as planned against daemons.

W-w-w-aaaiit a sec there!
Are you saying that null zone is only taken if the guy know he's playing daemons? Last I checked null zone was THE power to take on a libby, anything on top of that is gravy...

And after that successful derailing, I'm off to bed.

Servo skulls

Oscarius wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:
Well, in general, null zone isn't taken unless you plan on fighting an army with all invulnerable saves. Which means the rest of the army was also made as planned against daemons.

W-w-w-aaaiit a sec there!
Are you saying that null zone is only taken if the guy know he's playing daemons? Last I checked null zone was THE power to take on a libby, anything on top of that is gravy...

And after that successful derailing, I'm off to bed.

Maybe it is just my gaming group. Nobody is really scared of something that has a 5++ save and T4 (aka orks) 4++ save in most cases (eldar). A little scared of DE with 2++ save, but easy to get passed. TH/SS termiators just die. There is no reason people should be scared of those. Tyranids don't have ++ saves except zoantrhopes. No tau or necron players... but I have never heard anyone complain about their high ++ saves.

I don't see much a reason to take null zone on a librarian. Though, i am not a space marine player, so don't ask me about imperial logic

wisdomseyes1 wrote:

Oscarius wrote:

wisdomseyes1 wrote:
Well, in general, null zone isn't taken unless you plan on fighting an army with all invulnerable saves. Which means the rest of the army was also made as planned against daemons.

W-w-w-aaaiit a sec there!
Are you saying that null zone is only taken if the guy know he's playing daemons? Last I checked null zone was THE power to take on a libby, anything on top of that is gravy...

And after that successful derailing, I'm off to bed.

Maybe it is just my gaming group. Nobody is really scared of something that has a 5++ save and T4 (aka orks) 4++ save in most cases (eldar). A little scared of DE with 2++ save, but easy to get passed. TH/SS termiators just die. There is no reason people should be scared of those. Tyranids don't have ++ saves except zoantrhopes. No tau or necron players... but I have never heard anyone complain about their high ++ saves.

I don't see much a reason to take null zone on a librarian. Though, i am not a space marine player, so don't ask me about imperial logic

Yeah, Null Zone is generally considered to be the best SM power. Sure SS/TH die, but they die twice as fast if Null Zoned. And (IF you manage to get it off) Null Zone completely screws a Seer Council.

Most Daemon players I've seen locally run a tzeench themed list, and yes the libby is stowed in a LR

rovian wrote:Servo skulls

Servo-skulls do not prevent enemy deepstriking like previously believed. The only things capable of that are interceptors and strike squads. Servo skulls just provide you a 12" zone of awesome where you scatter less.

On a good note for Daemons (and chaos players in general), GK Librarians have to pay for their powers at the point of list building, where as most Librarians choose their powers at the beginning of the game. With this in mind, without specifically tailoring against Chaos, don't expect to see Dark Excommunication come up on Librarians too often (maybe if they have extra points). You still have to keep an eye on Dreadknights though.

And speaking of Servo skulls, anyone have any interesting ideas with them? I'm thinking that scattering a bunch throughout the enemy's deployment zone could cause them to deploy in an unfavourable manner (to prevent you from deepstriking in their back line). The shear intimidation factor they can provide could be very useful.

@Kroot: Tzeentch Themed? You must have it easy :-) Just get them in close combat and they lose...

As for the termies, the reroll only matters if you are penetrating their armor. I am not sure why you would be shooting lascannons into them. Plasma I can see. Vindicators, but those are even easier to counter... Usually high volumes of fire take out terminators much more effectively. Make them roll dice and they will roll ones...

Space marine tactics seem so strange... force a reroll on an invulnerable save that only applies if you are using heavy weapons on them. It is just strange