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Hello Dakka. Having just read the new Grey Knights codex last weekend I have a question regarding the new spell "the summoning." I have searched for related topics and have come up short/I do not have my BRB on me, so if I missed something I apologize ahead of time. If memory serves (I'm at work so cannot verify) the power in question says "in the beginning of the movement phase" choose a non-engaged friendly grey knight unit and then summon them to be within 6 inches of the librarian via deep strike. My question is: am I able to deep strike said librarian and then activate that power? Any help would be appreciated and thanks ahead of time.

No, because DS is also "at the start of the movement phase"

Thank you nosferatu. I knew both occured "at the beginning of movement phase" so it was unclear if both could happen before you actually start moving models through normal means. Much appreciated, this changes my potential list.

Also backed up by this from the latest FAQ:

Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that occurs at
the start of a turn can they use that ability on the turn they
arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

Alot of the eldar farseer powers suffer from this also.

This is actually not covered by any of the other examples, but I have not seen the exact wording of the power. It's debatable till blue in the phase, but nothing says that beginning of the turn = beginning of the movement phase.

Our Farseers get hosed because the power is the beginning of the turn which logically takes precedence to beginning of the moment phase, hence why reserves can't be cast on my farseer powers, not can they cast after coming in. This same issue occurs in the FAQ example given, in that it states the "start of the turn" as well.

If this power does infact state "start of the movement phase" then there is no clear precedence on what takes place first, DS or the power. That being said, it'll be FAQed and logically altered that you can't cast it after DS since they occur simultaneously, so better to play it the more restrictive way as not to get use to the tactic.

We always worked it that Deep Striking is that units move.

Affects that efect 'at the start of turn' happen in that infintessimal point between saying 'Ah, my turn' and moving your units.

In short: at start of turn happens before moving units, which includes deep striking!

Well, thats how we do it.

It'd be nice if there was a breakdown of the turn structure like there is for M:tG

Thus my confusion in the first place. Again I'm going off of memory, so all of this may be null and void, but I'm fairly certain the power states "at the beginning of the movement phase." Since both DS and this power are "at the beginning of movement phase" I was/am confused as to whether or not such a combination would work. I'm going to play the more restrictive way just in case, until things are clear.

The combination I was thinking of involved a librarian with said power and Mordrak (sp) the special character that can DS turn 1 without scattering. If I was allowed to activate that power after the the non-scattered DS, I would pull an optimal unit from my deployment zone to alpha strike my opponent. For example, summon a purgation squad with 4 incinerators on target next to an infantry horde. I thought of it as the Grey Knight version of a drop pod.

I appreciate the help everyone and thanks for replying!

Correct, that combination and a few others ends up being rather game changing so I would assume that they will FAQ it to not possible since it is already grey. For those looking to exploit the loophole, clarify with a TO before you try it in a tourney.

PrometheusZero wrote:We always worked it that Deep Striking is that units move.

Affects that efect 'at the start of turn' happen in that infintessimal point between saying 'Ah, my turn' and moving your units.

In short: at start of turn happens before moving units, which includes deep striking!

Well, thats how we do it.

It'd be nice if there was a breakdown of the turn structure like there is for M:tG

But, there isn't a nice breakdown of the turn in 40k. That means that we need to interpret "start of the turn" and "start of the phase".

Now, they don't say "At the very beginning of the phase/turn before you do anything else". So, I don't know why people interpret it that way.

I tend to think of the start of something to be the beginning part. The start of a movie isn't the very first frame, it's the first few scenes, during the character establishment before the plot really kicks in.

As such, I'd argue that the definition for "Start of the movement phase" means the beginning-ish of the phase. You can move a unit or two, or you can have a reserve unit deep strike. As long as you haven't delved into the heart of the movement phase, or made any game critical difficult terrain rolls, you're still at the start of the phase.

"Start of the turn" means everything before the real action in the turn happens. The real action kicks in during the shooting phase. You may have a few troops killed, or a vehicle immobilized during the movement phase, but the core of the turn is in the shooting and assault phases. So, if an ability is "start of the turn", that means at any point during the movement phase.


Edit: I should point out that this post is a little tounge-in-cheek. I disagree with the common interpretation of "start", but I fully recognize that's the way people play the game, so I expect to actually play that way, even if I don't agree with it.

Grak: While I agree with your concept in theory...

2 points come up in the Rulebook and FAQ(Like Voltron they combine to refute your concept).

The First is the reserves rules that state you Roll for reserves at the beginning of your movement phase before moving any models.

The Second is the FAQ that specifies that models arriving from reserve cannot use any of their "start of the movement Phase" abilities.

Now prior to the FAQ, I might have fully agreed with you. in fact those players that choose not to use the FAQs could benefit from your insight, but allow me to flesh it out.

We have 3 different Beginning-types; reserves, Start of turn abilities, and Beginning of Movement phase abilities. I propose that those choosiung to ignore the FAQ do them in this order:

Start of Turn abilities: now there is not "start of turn phase", but as soon as your opponent tells you it is your turn this is obviously the Start of your turn. And as there are "start of movement Phase" abilities and rules; Start of turn must clearly go before them.

Start of movement Phase abilities(Including Reserves): the order you do these in does not really matter, so long as you move no models before you perform all the reserves steps. After completing the reserves steps you may return to "start of movement Phase" abilities.

But, again, for any and all players using the FAQ; the start of the movement phase ends as soon as models are moved.

That's why a rule like the Space Marine Librarian's Gate of Infinity says it is used at the Librarian's Movement phase.
If it said it was use at the beginning of the Movement phase, someone could try to argut that if you moved any other unit, the beginning of the movement phase had passed and the Librarian couldn't use GoI anymore.

Fallacy!

Models do not have individual Movement/Shooting/assault phases, Only Players do.

War-machine has individual unit Activations, where units go through all the turns steps.

War-hammer has Player turn Phases, where all units move in the Players Movement phase, then all units shoot in the players shooting phase, then all units assault, then fight in their combats in the players assault phase.

GOI either must happen in the beginning of the players movement phase, or not at all, ever.

Kommissar Kel wrote: Models do not have individual Movement/Shooting/assault phases, Only Players do.

Didn't say they did. GoI just refers to when the Librarian makes his move to allow it not to have to be the first to move.

Kommissar Kel wrote:GOI either must happen in the beginning of the players movement phase, or not at all, ever.

Meaning the Librarian would have to be the first model to move and if not could not use GoI?
As above, nothing in the rules backs that up.

Again thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I will pose a question that will hopefully clear this up. Not having the FAQ/BRB in front of me I have to ask if on p94 does it specifically state "start of turn" ? I guess the confusion arises from the wording "start of turn" and "beginning of movement phase." I like to think they are both the same thing, but I can see how it is a bit of a grey area. Also, I can see how the librarians DS counts as his move and therefore one is no longer at the "beginning" of the movement phase for one has started moving units. For example, one can't use a locator beacon off a drop pod the same turn it came in to allow other drop pods coming in that turn not to scatter for it all happens simultaneously.

Nine_breaker wrote:Again thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I will pose a question that will hopefully clear this up. Not having the FAQ/BRB in front of me I have to ask if on p94 does it specifically state "start of turn" ?

If you're asking about rolling for reserves, that happens at the start of the player's Movement phase. But that is also the start of the player's turn as well.

If beginning of movement phase = start of turn; then debate is over imo

I'll play with the mentality that this combination will not work and move on. Thanks everyone.

time wizard wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote: Models do not have individual Movement/Shooting/assault phases, Only Players do.

Didn't say they did. GoI just refers to when the Librarian makes his move to allow it not to have to be the first to move.

Kommissar Kel wrote:GOI either must happen in the beginning of the players movement phase, or not at all, ever.

Meaning the Librarian would have to be the first model to move and if not could not use GoI?
As above, nothing in the rules backs that up.

No The librarian has no movement phase; the owning Player does, so the librarian would have to activate GOI as the first "move".

As to your second response: that is exactly what it means. the Lack of a librarian having a movement phase himself is where the rules back that up. Now, if the power had said before the Librarian moves; you would be correct.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
No The librarian has no movement phase; the owning Player does, so the librarian would have to activate GOI as the first "move".

As the first part of the Librarian's move, no matter when in the owning player's turn it occurred.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
As to your second response: that is exactly what it means. the Lack of a librarian having a movement phase himself is where the rules back that up. Now, if the power had said before the Librarian moves; you would be correct.

If what you say is true, a Space Marine player could either put models in reserve or take GoI, but not both.
GoI says it is used "...at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase..." but if there are units in reserve, they must be rolled for at the start of the player's movement phase and then the player picks a unit and moves it onto the board. So the beginning of the player's movement phase has clearly ended and by your interpretation the Librarian could not cast GoI that turn. And if all your units did not arrive from reserve, the Librarian would be unable to use GoI the next turn as well. I don't see it as happening that way.

I am well aware that GOI+Reserves is rather Sticky; especially as you cannot move any models before rolling for reserves and after reserves have arrived you are well within your movement Phase.

I can find no solution to this. The best Course of action is to discuss it with your opponent pregame, and house rule an allowance to use gate after reserves arrival(but not from a libby entering from reserves), or To cast the power before rolling for reserves and put the Gated unit into the reserves arriving this turn; deploying them along with your reserves. Neither solution there are official nor technically legal, but they are also non-advantageous to either player.

once Again; models do not have their own Phases. As a librarian does not have his own Movement Phase, then either you must resolve GOI at the Beginning of Your Movement phase, or you can never use GOI.

Kommissar Kel wrote:once Again; models do not have their own Phases. As a librarian does not have his own Movement Phase, then either you must resolve GOI at the Beginning of Your Movement phase, or you can never use GOI.

Only thing I can add is from Codex Space Marines, page 57, Librarian Psychic Powers, The Gate of Infinity, "This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase."
So it sounds like GW gave the Librarian a movement phase of his own.

Nah, just gave him a power he can never use; since the time-trigger for when he can use it doesn't exist

Also Remember this is GW we are talking about; do you really thing that they do not make Glaring, horrible, rules mistakes/incongruities?

Heck, that is why this forum is here.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Nah, just gave him a power he can never use; since the time-trigger for when he can use it doesn't exist

A power? No, many powers;

Force Dome, "This power is used at the start of the Librarian's Movement phase."

Quickening, "This power is used at the start of the Librarian's Shooting phase."

Null Zone, "This power is used at the start of the Librarian's Shooting phase."

Might of the Ancients, "This power is used at the start of the Librarian's Assault phase."

Along with Gate of Infinity, that's 5 powers out of 9 that the Librarian cannot use!

Dang!

I never use librarians; so I never really paid attention

There is no rule that states when the end of the "beginning of the movement phase" ends and there definitely isn't any rule that categorically defines it as "the moment a unit is moved". This is the same issue with "the beginning of a player's turn" (which is only defined as the Movement phase).

Having said that, popular method of playing the end of the "beginning of the movement phase/player's turn" is movement of a unit in the Movement phase.