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Alright, so.. I've painted Warhammer for about six years but never actually gotten into the lore nor the game itself. So I wanted to play the Black Templars but the more I read, the more I get put off due to rules and missing units. I mean, I can understand that the black templars are in their own way a very good army, but it's not for me. So I read through the chapter creation in the space marine codex but was left with many questions still. What I was thinking, as I'd like to use the Black Templar insignias and looks.. Is there any way I can actually use their cross, and some of their looks in my own chapter? Or is there a good place where I can take a good indepth look at creating a chapter?

I apologize if these are stupid questions.

Edit: Could I base my army off a Black Templar Crusade who have gone off on their own and formed their own chapter?
Like.. Having my troops as a crusade that after a magnificent crusade were granted independancey by the high marshal as a reward?

As a Black Templar player who previously played my own offshoot Chapter, I can say this: Crusades "breaking out" is a no-no. It just doesn't happen. What COULD happen, though, is that a Marshal, along with some veterans, get transferred to a newly created Chapter to form the core of the command structure in the new chapter. The problem with this is that the Black Templars aren't exactly the Inquisition's favourite chapter, as we use the Codex Astartes as toilet paper, more or less...

It's pretty close to the Codex Astartes, its the 6,000+ marines that has them slightly concerned.

You could make a new chapter founded from the Black Templars (and their gene seed) or just play them using a different marine codex.

If the lore hasn't mattered to you for the past 6 years there is no reason to start now.

As long as you are useing the right codex and follow the rules (no dev squads for BT codex users) I don't see why not.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:It's pretty close to the Codex Astartes, its the 6,000+ marines that has them slightly concerned.

"Pretty close" as in not at all? No tactical squads, no standard squad markings, no companies, no sergeants, no scout company, no devastators, DOZENS OF BATTLE-BARGES and who knows how many other things.

Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

Just do black templar

I would just say something along the lines of "they've been on a lengthy crusade and had to use some unconventional (for BT) tactics to achieve their goals. They've had to temper their anger and have even 'requisitioned' non BT equipment from another chapter. They have even gone so far as to adjust unit structure as the crusade demanded." It's you army...do what you want.

Thanks alot for the tips

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

So Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same, because they're the same race and both use skimmers?

You could base your chapter on BT as though they are successors.
They might follow the same pattern of behaviour but with less marines.
Maybe have roving companies with the entire chapter meeting up for important events or crusades.
They could use similar iconography and organisation.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

Well considering another Imperial civil war almost started over something as simple as putting marines into Chapter that should strictly adhere to the Codex seems like it would be at least semi-heretical.

And it seems like the organization is pretty far off to me. Other than wearing power armor and lettings vet were Terminator armor, their unit composition is nothing like the Codex states. Hell, a single Crusade can be up the the size of an entire chapter. No companies. No official squads. They just pal around with who they like best.

Pen≥Sword wrote:Hell, a single Crusade can be up the the size of an entire chapter.

Exactly!

Or, as in the case of the Armageddon Crusade: 3000 marines and more spaceships than you could shake a stick at! And the blasted Greenskins STILL almost won!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

So Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same, because they're the same race and both use skimmers?

No. Scouts are neophytes, regular marines are knights (IRRC), veterans are sword bretheran, and terminators are terminators. No, they don't use devastators or like librarians, but if snuggums wanted to use another codex (vanilla, or BA maybe) because he wasn't comfortable starting with the Templars codex, then I'm saying it's fine. Cause at the end of the day it's all a made up excuse to play with toy soldiers, regardless of what's in some book. So please forgive me for generalizing that a Space Marine is a Space Marine as far as a new player is concerned.

Honestly, do what you like. My "offshoot" Black Templars are still part of the Black Templars, but given "special dispensation" by the high marshal to field different heraldry (on account of some particularly hyper-noble/heroic act or something, aka similar reasoning as to why Yarrick is allowed to travel with Helbrecht).

With almost all of the chapters, it's pretty much whatever you feel like. They don't have to be cookie-cutter if you don't want them to be.

Gameplay wise a BT force can be translated into a Vanilla marine force really easily, as alot of the units are basically renamed versions in the BT codex (and, in the case of crusader squads, two units joined into one, but retaining their options). You just refrain from using the forbidden units (Devs and Libbys) when playing as BT.

Fluff wise though, if you like the iconography but not the chapter itself, then there's nothing stopping you from making a loyalist chapter (that was founded by any other chapter stock, even ultras) and just say they function like the BTs (alot of chapters have Chapter Champions, you can just use that as your Emp Champion instead).

Also, I should note that prior to the DE update, alot of players actually ran their DE army as count-as eldar armies. Fluff wise, I'll just say the Incubi and leave it there....

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Gameplay wise a BT force can be translated into a Vanilla marine force really easily, as alot of the units are basically renamed versions in the BT codex (and, in the case of crusader squads, two units joined into one, but retaining their options). You just refrain from using the forbidden units (Devs and Libbys) when playing as BT.

Fluff wise though, if you like the iconography but not the chapter itself, then there's nothing stopping you from making a loyalist chapter (that was founded by any other chapter stock, even ultras) and just say they function like the BTs (alot of chapters have Chapter Champions, you can just use that as your Emp Champion instead).

Also, I should note that prior to the DE update, alot of players actually ran their DE army as count-as eldar armies. Fluff wise, I'll just say the Incubi and leave it there....

THANK YOU!

Son 0f Dorn wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

So Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same, because they're the same race and both use skimmers?

No. Scouts are neophytes, regular marines are knights (IRRC), veterans are sword bretheran, and terminators are terminators. No, they don't use devastators or like librarians, but if snuggums wanted to use another codex (vanilla, or BA maybe) because he wasn't comfortable starting with the Templars codex, then I'm saying it's fine. Cause at the end of the day it's all a made up excuse to play with toy soldiers, regardless of what's in some book. So please forgive me for generalizing that a Space Marine is a Space Marine as far as a new player is concerned.

Well that's if you look at it purely from a rules/codex standpoint. I mean.. almost the same could be said when comparing Eldar to Space Marines. Banshees are Honor Guard, Dire Avengers are Tactical Marines, Guardians are Scouts, Dark Reapers are Devastators, Assault Marines are Scorpions. Of course that's stretching it a little but fluffwise it's a whole dfferent mentality.

Rules wise I say do whatever you want. They're all marines.

Pen≥Sword wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Son 0f Dorn wrote:Changing the titles doesn't mean the organization is that far off. Squads are bigger but overall function is pretty close. Nothing heretical by any means.

So Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same, because they're the same race and both use skimmers?

No. Scouts are neophytes, regular marines are knights (IRRC), veterans are sword bretheran, and terminators are terminators. No, they don't use devastators or like librarians, but if snuggums wanted to use another codex (vanilla, or BA maybe) because he wasn't comfortable starting with the Templars codex, then I'm saying it's fine. Cause at the end of the day it's all a made up excuse to play with toy soldiers, regardless of what's in some book. So please forgive me for generalizing that a Space Marine is a Space Marine as far as a new player is concerned.

Well that's if you look at it purely from a rules/codex standpoint. I mean.. almost the same could be said when comparing Eldar to Space Marines. Banshees are Honor Guard, Dire Avengers are Tactical Marines, Guardians are Scouts, Dark Reapers are Devastators, Assault Marines are Scorpions. Of course that's stretching it a little but fluffwise it's a whole dfferent mentality.

Rules wise I say do whatever you want. They're all marines.

That analogy kinda falls short because Scouts, Tactical Marines, (Vanguard) Veterans, and Terminators more or less have the exact same stats and equipment (bar the Vanguard Vets, since they're a new version of the old Space Marine Vets) as their Black Templar Counterparts. The BT versions just has Tacts mixed with Scouts and gave tacts the ability to take CC weapons. They also more or less share the same model (as there's nothing requiring you to use the BT upgrade kit). SoD was probably refering to how they are simply re-named (and in the case of Crusader squads, reorganised) units from the Vanilla SM dex, rather than entirely different units like DE Wyches and Craftworld Banshees.