Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello to you helpful people of Dakka Dakka!

I am still fairly new to the gaming side of the hobby even though I started collecting again 2 years ago. I've played a few games and seem to be getting better with the rules but still sometimes have a question about them or have to question them themselves.

Can someone assist me please in regards to assaulting in ruins. I have read this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/250234.page#875046 and I have read the rulebook but I am still not 100% sure.

BGB, p85, Ruins and Assaults, 1st paragraph wrote:
That is to say, distances measured between the models on different levels are measured between the heads of the models on the lower level to the bases of the models on the upper levels (see page 82)

The Rulebook, page 85 wrote:In some cases, the ruin might be genuinely unstable or uneven, or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move assaulting models into base to base contact with the unit they wish to assault. When this happens it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as is safely possible, including the level below or above provided you place the assaulting models as close as possible to their opponents and you make clear to your opponent which of your models are in base to base with his models.

Now my situation is as illustrated



I have 3 men on level 2 of the ruin and 6 on level 3. I am assaulted by a squad of Space Wolves who just manage to get into assault range with only a single troop being able to get on to the next level along with my troops on level 2 The rest are not inside the ruin.

The red arrow on each represents 2 Inches.

How is who can attack determined? From the quotes from the BRB I believe that it is as per Diagram 1, in this case 4 Space Wolves, 1 on level 2 with my troops and 3 within 2 inches heads to base, rather than Diagram 2, being 7 in total. Which is how it was played.

Also



I have a Chaos Space marine squad which I believe to be in cover behind a hill. The Space Wolves long fangs fire their Plasma Cannon at me, scoring a hit, and subsequently killing the whole squad Fool me for clumping them together. At the time I did not question this outcome but thinking about it later on, believed that I should have had a cover save, am I correct in thinking this?

As always, your help is appreciated

1) You measure the actual distance to them, not a "2D" representation.

THe game IS 3D, the diagrams (for ease) are generally 2D but this does not override the fact theyre real models

2) Could the long fang see 100% of every model? (or at least 100% of > 50% of the models) If even the shins are covered then you would get a cover save

On a side note;

Bloody hell. Now that is how you formulate a rules question! Question, quotes and illustrations!

A lot of people could learn from this.


Aside from that; I agree with Nos.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) You measure the actual distance to them, not a "2D" representation.

THe game IS 3D, the diagrams (for ease) are generally 2D but this does not override the fact theyre real models

Thank you Nos.

But in 3D terms do you measure from head to base, as per the first quote from the BRB or outwards from the base, like you would do in a normal assault in open terrain? That's whats confusing me. It doesn't seem to be much of a benefit if everyone within a 2 inch circle can assault even if you are on separate levels. Quite possibly I am reading or interpreting it wrong, as I tend to do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) Could the long fang see 100% of every model? (or at least 100% of > 50% of the models) If even the shins are covered then you would get a cover save

On that, I couldn't answer as I didn't check, I think they would have been slightly obscured as they were fairly close to the hill itself. The point is now noted for future engagements!

Thanks again

Steelmage99 wrote:On a side note;

Bloody hell. Now that is how you formulate a rules question! Question, quotes and illustrations!

A lot of people could learn from this.


Aside from that; I agree with Nos.

Why thank you

#1 You are correct, 4 wolves total because 1 model is in base to base and 3 are within 2" of the model in base to base.

EDIT: Because of the first paragraph under 'Ruins And Assaults' on page 85 where it says that distances between models on different levels of ruins are measured from the head of models on the lower level to the base of models on the upper level.

#2 nosferatu answered it.

time wizard wrote:#1 You are correct, 4 wolves total because 1 model is in base to base and 3 are within 2" of the model in base to base.

EDIT: Because of the first paragraph under 'Ruins And Assaults' on page 85 where it says that distances between models on different levels of ruins are measured from the head of models on the lower level to the base of models on the upper level.

#2 nosferatu answered it.

Thanks Wizard!

So if the Squad had been able to advance further into the ruin, and as they would have been within 2inches head to base of my unit on level 2 all would have been able to attack?

Pilau Rice wrote:
Thanks Wizard!

So if the Squad had been able to advance further into the ruin, and as they would have been within 2inches head to base of my unit on level 2 all would have been able to attack?

They would have to move to within 2" of a member of their own unit that was in base contact with a member of your unit.
The rules for who is engaged in close combat (page 35) still must be followed.
The ruins section just makes certain allowances for assaults occurring through different levels.
That's why, to try to keep some consistancy, the distance between each level is set at 3" but coherency is measured from models head to base within a unit. Otherwise you would have to place all models in a unit on the same lovel to maintain coherency. Would be almost impossible with some ruins.

time wizard wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Thanks Wizard!

So if the Squad had been able to advance further into the ruin, and as they would have been within 2inches head to base of my unit on level 2 all would have been able to attack?

They would have to move to within 2" of a member of their own unit that was in base contact with a member of your unit.
The rules for who is engaged in close combat (page 35) still must be followed.
The ruins section just makes certain allowances for assaults occurring through different levels.
That's why, to try to keep some consistancy, the distance between each level is set at 3" but coherency is measured from models head to base within a unit. Otherwise you would have to place all models in a unit on the same lovel to maintain coherency. Would be almost impossible with some ruins.

And once more

I will take all this on board for next time and will speak up if it arises again, I didn't think that it was correct the way that it had been played.

time wizard wrote:
They would have to move to within 2" of a member of their own unit that was in base contact with a member of your unit.

If I recall, the assault rules simply say, "within 2" of an engaged model." Does it specify their own unit?

puma713 wrote:

time wizard wrote:
They would have to move to within 2" of a member of their own unit that was in base contact with a member of your unit.

If I recall, the assault rules simply say, "within 2" of an engaged model." Does it specify their own unit?

Yes, page 35, second bullet point under 'Who Can Fight?', "Models within 2" of at least one model in their own unit that is in base contact with any enemy models."

Puma - it definitely requires "own unit", otherwise IC's would be able to attack in close combat without being hit back, simply by not being in btb with the enemy but being within 2" of a friendly model who is.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Puma - it definitely requires "own unit", otherwise IC's would be able to attack in close combat without being hit back, simply by not being in btb with the enemy but being within 2" of a friendly model who is.

Well, there's a caveat for IC's for actually being in base-to-base to attack. But I know where you're going with it - and Wizard provided the page, so I'm good.

Do not forget that IC's must be in Base to Base contact with enemy models for CC otherwise they dont do anything


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops didn't see you guys already covered that sorry