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So I was reading the Dark Angel 'dex the other day and the fluff really, really appealed to me. However, when I got to the army list section I was hugely disappointed by both the lack of options available and points cost of the units themselves. So I set out to make a fluffy-esque Dark Angels army using the standard Marine 'dex as a stand-in. Here's what I got so far:

HQ

Azrael (Chapter Master)
- relic blade
- artificer armour
- combi-plasma
180

ELITES

Deathwing Terminators (Terminator Assault Sqd)
- 3 x TH/SS
- 2 x LC
Land Raider Crusader
- MM
460

Company Veterans (Sternguard) (6-man)
- 2 x plasma cannons
Rhino
205

Company Veterans (Sternguard) (6-man)
- 2 x plasma cannons
Rhino
205

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10)
- plasma cannon
- plasma gun
- combi-plasma
Rhino
230

Tactical Squad (10)
- plasma cannon
- plasma gun
- combi-plasma
Rhino
230

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator
- AC, 2 x LCs
120

Predator
- AC, 2 x LCs
120

TOTAL = 1750 dead on the nose

So Azrael goes with the Deathwing to beat face whilst the Company Veterans and the Predators tag-team up to smash transports and squads. The Tacticals will probably advance to mid-field to lay down supporting fire for the DW and will combat squad as needed.

The only thing I think I may suffer against would be a lot of AV14, as I have practically no melta in the army. Mech IG would also pose a slight problem as there are only 4 lascannons in the whole army.

Possible changes: I could swap the Predators for a squadron or two of Ravenwing Land Speeders (MM/HF) to help with cracking high AV targets. I could also swap them for Vindicators which would help with both AV14 and clumped up infantry.

Thoughts?

L. Wrex

EDIT: A further change would be to drop the Predators and include a 'Ravenwing Attack Squadron' consisting of a Land Speeder w/ MM, Bike Sqd (3) w/ 2 x meltagun and an Attack Bike w/ MM. It comes to 220 points which leaves me 20 points left over for....something.

Possibly some ravenwing?? Teleport homers after turbo boosting is useful for terminators!!

The Terminators wouldn't ever be deep striking as they have a LRC to ride around in. I am considering a small contingent of 'Ravenwing' (see my edit) as it gives me access to four very fast melta weapons to target tough vehicles with.

L. Wrex

I think most of the units you;ve taken have poor equipement choices.

Starting at the top Azreal wants to charge into CC but you've paid an extra 25 points for a gun he has to stay still to fire. I know it may feel more fluffy using the CM entry but the Captain entry does the same job just without you paying 25 points for a gun you won't fire (or will rarely fire). Likewise the combi-plasma shouldn't be fired give him a plasma pistol so you can still assaullt after firing.

Now theTerminators. You know that the TH/SS upgrade is free right? You get to improve your model for no extra points why don't you do it? Would you drop a heavy weapon from a devastator squad to get the Sergeant a powerfist? Because that is essentially what you are doing by taking LC Terminators in a Terminator Assault Squad.

Sternguard are awesome but PCs aren't a great option you basically have that job covered by special ammo and if you want to goi TEQ hunting take combi-plasmas synergises with squad better and doesn't waste the special ammo. But combi-melta is the best option for them.

Tac squds are good. But again not convinced plasma is the best weapon option in the current Mech heavy meta. But they are solo purpose which is good and they are efficient.

Heavy support is perfect don't drop them!

So basically I'd say you can keep from the tac squads down the same. But I'd change everything above that to better make use of the points you are spending.

I'm not sure whether you read the title properly, this is kind of meant to be a more fluff-based list than an out-an-out streamlined, competitive, efficient army. However, I'll address the points you've made and try and offer a bit more insight.

FlingitNow wrote:Starting at the top Azreal wants to charge into CC but you've paid an extra 25 points for a gun he has to stay still to fire. I know it may feel more fluffy using the CM entry but the Captain entry does the same job just without you paying 25 points for a gun you won't fire (or will rarely fire). Likewise the combi-plasma shouldn't be fired give him a plasma pistol so you can still assaullt after firing.

Well....yes. He's equipped as closely as possible as the Azrael in the DA codex. That was the sole point in equipping him the way he is; I wanted to be able to field Azrael as Azrael, flaws and all.

FlingitNow wrote:Now theTerminators. You know that the TH/SS upgrade is free right? You get to improve your model for no extra points why don't you do it? Would you drop a heavy weapon from a devastator squad to get the Sergeant a powerfist? Because that is essentially what you are doing by taking LC Terminators in a Terminator Assault Squad.

Swings and roundabouts. TH/SS Terms, whilst good, don't have the weight of attacks needed if you find yourself embroiled in CC with large units. If you want to do the math vs MEQ on the charge: TH/SS has 3A. 50% hit, 83% chance to kill = 0.62 dead. LC has 4A. 50% hit, 75% chance to kill (LC re-roll) = 1.5 dead. The tradeoff is that the TH is more viable against higher toughness, whilst the LCs are good vs large numbers of medium/lower toughness units. Having a mix in the squad helps provide inherent flexibility - which is good when building an all-comers list.

FlingitNow wrote:Sternguard are awesome but PCs aren't a great option you basically have that job covered by special ammo and if you want to goi TEQ hunting take combi-plasmas synergises with squad better and doesn't waste the special ammo. But combi-melta is the best option for them.

I did (and still am) considering swapping out the PCs for combi-plasmas, as it fits the motif of the DA whilst still retaining special ammo and, most importantly, the manoeuvrability of the Rhino. The reason I went for the PC is that SG can have two in a 5-man squad for cheap, and still have members left over to make use of the special ammo. I'll do some tweaking and maybe some proxying to see which one works out best.

I hope that helps shed some light on why I chose what I did. That's not to say I'm eschewing your advice entirely though (especially regarding the SG). I'll make a few tweaks and post up a second draft.

L. Wrex

Well....yes. He's equipped as closely as possible as the Azrael in the DA codex. That was the sole point in equipping him the way he is; I wanted to be able to field Azrael as Azrael, flaws and all.

Fair enough but I still feel a Ccaptain entry will fullfill the fluff just as well without costing 25 extra points.

Swings and roundabouts. TH/SS Terms, whilst good, don't have the weight of attacks needed if you find yourself embroiled in CC with large units. If you want to do the math vs MEQ on the charge: TH/SS has 3A. 50% hit, 83% chance to kill = 0.62 dead. LC has 4A. 50% hit, 75% chance to kill (LC re-roll) = 1.5 dead. The tradeoff is that the TH is more viable against higher toughness, whilst the LCs are good vs large numbers of medium/lower toughness units. Having a mix in the squad helps provide inherent flexibility - which is good when building an all-comers list.

So would you put a powerfist on a Devastaor sergeant a powerfist at the expense of a heavy weapon? It would undeniably improve the squad in CC and make them more flexible. Obviously they'd still suck in Cc and would now be worse at their main job but apparently that is a worthwhile trade off. Because that is what you are doing by taking LC Terminators. I know LC Terminators do more damage to W1 T4 on the charge than TH/SS. But they also take more damage.

However against 5-10 man MEQ assault Terminators of either variety will win comfortably. Against Hordes the LCs will do better that is why you take them to do better against hordes. However they will still suck against Hordes. Against other deathstar units and MCs LCs do nothing, this is the main job of Assault Terminators. So you are giving up the ability to deal with Nob bikerz, MCs, Incubi etc in order that you suck slightly less when in CC with a Horde of Termagants.

I am honestly confused. What options does the DA book not have that you need? Bear in mind that the DA got FAQ'd to have their wargear not suck.

ph34r wrote:I am honestly confused. What options does the DA book not have that you need? Bear in mind that the DA got FAQ'd to have their wargear not suck.

More expensive upgrades, more expensive units in general, less options, no Sternguard etc etc. An example would be that my version of Azrael costs 45 pts less than the actual Azrael and has no real discernible difference. The only *real* bonus that DA got through the FAQ was making their SS and CML not suck anymore which is great if you run pure Deathwing, but still puts you at a disadvantage should you wish to run a mixed army.

@Flingitnow

Why do you keep bringing up Devestators as a comparison? They have absoloutely nothing in common with Terminators so obviously paying points for CC equipment is a bad idea. Conversely Terminators have to assault, and widening their potential assault targets is never a bad thing. The argument that they take more damage is also wrong. A mix of weapons actually allows the Terminators to deal MORE damage on the turn they attack (LCs strikes at I4, then if the squad suffers casualties you remove the LC models which still leaves the THs to strike at I1). Should you face up against power weapons that strike at a higher I than you, you can then allocate those attacks to the TH and use their 3++. Inherent Flexibility.

Maybe this discussion belongs in Tactics (where it has been discusses numerous times). Suffice to say that 3 x THs will still pwn the hell out of Nobz, MCs and the like, and against Incubi the LCs are actually a far better option as the DE are only T3.

L. Wrex

Maybe this discussion belongs in Tactics (where it has been discusses numerous times). Suffice to say that 3 x THs will still pwn the hell out of Nobz, MCs and the like, and against Incubi the LCs are actually a far better option as the DE are only T3.

THat depends on the MC and how many Nobz and the LCs become a liability against the Incubi as they have a worse invunerable save and still strike after the Incubi (yes they do more damage). This is the issue against Nobs and MCs the LCs cost you victory. Against Hordes the LCs still don't enable you to win (point for point). So you give up the ability to do your main job in order that you performs less badly at a job you'll still not perform well at. It is exactly like the Devastator example. Trying to make your squads good against everything invariably makes them good at nothing. It is like taking a flamer and combi-melta in a Tac squad well done you've just wasted points making the unit good at nothing. TH/SS Terminators are considered a deathstar. In fact they are so good in the Vanilla codex that the TH/SS option costs more in the BA codex a codex where the LCs become far more effective due to Furious Assault.

Compare the points cost of taking TH/SS for every other unit that can take them in this codex and any codex released after the new SSs came out and you'll find that the TH/SS combo is more expensive (significantly more in many cases). The reason being it is just better. So why not take an improvement for free when everyone else has to pay for it?

I think your list is fine. The sternguard are better in sm codex.

FlingitNow wrote:snip

Agree to disagree. If you want to discuss this further make a thread on Tactics and I'll happily wade into further discussion with you there.

L. Wrex