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Hey, not been to the old times here before. I went on GW looking for pistigors to perhaps use as summoned daemons for 40k as the current metal ones were way too expensive. I remembered they got a new book so I thought hey they may be plastic. But beasts of chaos has gone...its beastmen now not choas in any way , I have not bee paying attention to warhammer fantasy sorry =(. Have I missed something here? Is there anyway I can still find Beasts of Chaos miniatures?

As you've noticed, GW's made the move to de-chaosify Chaos.

As such, Beastmen seem to be 'afflicted' by Chaos here and there, but otherwise now separate and distinct from Chaos, much more so than their Warriors of Chaos friends.

I suspect that if you want to find old Beasts of Chaos models, you'll have to scrounge around EBAY.

They let Phail Kelly design the book and he made something that is actually worse than its predecessor. The army literally shrunk in options to a third of its size and lost nearly all of its rules. Think of them as Brown Orcs.

Fact is that Fantasy Chaos armies were split into 3 separate branches: Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos and crossover units were reduced to a minimum. Reasoning behind this is that GW wants to end a too strong mix of different styles and units in one army (see also non-support for Dogs of War). So metal Pestigors or other Chaosgod Gors are discontinued for a long time and only available on ebay etc. You can field them "counting as" normal gors of course.

Phazael wrote:They let Phail Kelly design the book and he made something that is actually worse than its predecessor. The army literally shrunk in options to a third of its size and lost nearly all of its rules. Think of them as Brown Orcs.

Andy Hoare played a part as well, for what its worth.

Do you play Beastmen, currently? Did you play them with their old book? Its a world of difference. Did we lose alot of (redundant) stuff? Yep. Do some of the magic items suck? Yep. Even with all of that, the army book is nowhere near as failtastic as the old one.

As a Beastmen player, I can tell you that this new book, although it has no rules that make anyone look at Beastmen as OP, is middle tier at worst. Definitely not worse then its predecessor, who was universallly agreed to be bottom tier from its inception. In my gaming experience, a balanced army from this current army book has no bad match ups against any other current army book, aside from maybe some gunline armies.

There is a recent Bad Dice podcast that focuses on Beastmen and can educate you on how mistaken you are about Beastmen.

Beastmen are here to stay, we are only better than Wood Elves in this edition in a competitive setup.

Not enough magic defense, overcosted units, no armor whatsoever aside from bestigors/minotaurs/heroes.

Andy Hoare and Phil Kelly did a terrible job, and I hate them for making me wait another 4 years for a small chance at being a mid-to-high tier army.

Yea they cant even have marks anymore. No Dragon Ogres or trolls either (how they end up in WoC and not here is anyone's guess)
They are like the CSM of fantasy, the split up of Chaos didnt do them any good.

That's exactly why I refused the new armybook and contine playing 'Beasts of Chaos'' not ''Beastmen''. Luckily my mate lets me too.

They were so much better as a full on chaos force than what they are nowadays.

I'll be off with my dragon ogres.

A Black Ram wrote:That's exactly why I refused the new armybook and contine playing 'Beasts of Chaos'' not ''Beastmen''. Luckily my mate lets me too.

They were so much better as a full on chaos force than what they are nowadays.

I'll be off with my dragon ogres.

Yea, the way I see it its just a poor attempt by GW to introduce new expensive monster kits in the near future.
I dont understand why they wont make new Dragon Ogre models though...

I must admit I do ponder with GW's wisdom sometimes. There should be a bit more crossover in the three books.

Imagine if Beastmen had a couple of Daemon options, and possible the ability to take Marauders to represent allies. It means more potential sales for three armies.

Same with Dragon Ogres, if Beastmen, WoC both had them, when a kit finally gets done two factions can get hold of them for their armies. It makes sense for them both to have them. Chaos Ogres, Minotaurs and Trolls as well.

That way Chaos still feels a little bit like Chaos, and GW still has plenty of models kits out there folks can grab for their armies.

Beastmen where also hit a little by the fact they have a couple of nice options in the book that have no current model, and at this rate won't be seeing them till their next update.

As I noted elsewhere I have already told Aurelia to take stuff from all three books as I am not bothered by any potential imbalances and really disliked them being split.

I can see not crossing Beastmen with Marauders, after all the Beastmen hate mankind (hence their Man-Bane special rule) and I don't really see them taking the time to differentiate between Marauders and Sigmars children (i.e., the Empire and Brettonia, to whom the special rule actually applies).

I do find it strange that Beastmen can't have units like Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths, etc. etc. Creatures of chaos much like the beastmen themselves. Yet they do get access to Chaos Spawn. They also, strangely, have access to Harpies, which normally run with Dark Elves, not Warriors or Daemons of Chaos at all!

Yeah, maybe Human was pushing it, although I remember a time where they used to charge into battle side by side.

Damn those fluff changes!


But yeah, the larger monsters makes little sense to me, Ogres will work with anyone, and I'd not think Minotaurs would be too bothered who the master was as long as they get to feed.

I thought about using Beastmen models in a counts-as Warriors of Chaos force. I really, really like the Beastmen models (especially the Minotaurs) but I couldn't make good enough parallels to really pull it off. Especially with Ungors on 20mm bases, while Marauders are on 25mm bases O_o

Ah well, I'll still probably use Minotaurs as counts-as Ogres...

(assuming I ever actually start a second army. Skaven <3 )

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Beastmen where also hit a little by the fact they have a couple of nice options in the book that have no current model, and at this rate won't be seeing them till their next update.

Are you talking about Cygors, Ghorgons and the Jabberslythe? Those things are overpriced for what they do, and 8th edition made Cygors and Jabbers significantly weaker. Ghorgons can become devastating after they win a few rounds of combat, yes, but again warmachine and LOS changes in 8th made them much much easier to kill. All three of these things could be great if they weren't so expensive. Or in the case of Cygors and Jabbers, situational.

The only truly useful model missing from the current beastmen range is a Razorgor chariot.

streamdragon wrote:I do find it strange that Beastmen can't have units like Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths, etc. etc. Creatures of chaos much like the beastmen themselves. Yet they do get access to Chaos Spawn. They also, strangely, have access to Harpies, which normally run with Dark Elves, not Warriors or Daemons of Chaos at all!

And I'd glad they get harpies too, those winged ladies are awesome! Arguably the best addition to the army book.

The only unit I miss from the previous army book are Trolls, and thats mainly because the new plastic kit is so awesome. Everything else, meh. Alot of redundant stuff. Minotaurs are superior to Ogres (chaos ogres, not OK ogres) and arguably superior to Dragon Ogres as they are more affordable and don't require specific spells/effects to be cast/shot at them to have them reach their full potential. Also, Minotaurs can get better as a battle goes on, while ogres and Dragon Ogres remain static, so not only are they a better value to start with, but become an even greater value as the battle goes on (assuming you are winning their combats). There are some legitimate gripes about the Beastmen book (unit costs being my main complaint), thats definitely true, but trimming the fat and giving beastmen a more established identity isn't one of them. With that said, I do truly sympathize with folks who have models that they can't use anymore in a standard game, I just feel that they were and still are, inferior to Mino's.

I think the problem with peoples views on Beastmen is that they were an absolute bottom tier army in the previous book, and only went up to middle tier with their newest army. The book came out at the tail end of 7th, when Daemons, Undead and DE were reigning supreme, and this book fell short of competing with them in 7th edition.

I actually won games mroe than I lost with the previous book, even post seperation when we lost all the magic items and Daemon options. The old raiders herds were FAR superio to the current ranked brown orcs we are stuck with now. Chariots and Minos got absolutely decimated with the nerf bat. Wizards lost their (formerly modest) hand to hand ability. All psyche protection got stripped from the army.

Let me put this into perspective. The entire book got hammered so bad that a formerly useless core choice that is now a special choice (Worstigors) are now considered a mandatory unit by many who play the army. Never mind the fact that 2hw gors are mathematically superior, everyone runs a giant Bestigor Deathstar with the standard of discipline and huddles their entire army around the damn unit, because they have no other choice.

I tried to make book work for quite a while and every build that seemed to work was something that could be done better for less points in other armies. It pains me, too, because I really enjoyed playing this army and won a lot with it under the prior book (using a Shaggoth Lord for a general, no less), but now its just plain aweful.

NELS1031 wrote:

Are you talking about Cygors, Ghorgons and the Jabberslythe? Those things are overpriced for what they do, and 8th edition made Cygors and Jabbers significantly weaker. Ghorgons can become devastating after they win a few rounds of combat, yes, but again warmachine and LOS changes in 8th made them much much easier to kill. All three of these things could be great if they weren't so expensive. Or in the case of Cygors and Jabbers, situational.

The only truly useful model missing from the current beastmen range is a Razorgor chariot.

Ah well, aye, to be fair I'm talking from a point of view of reading the book and considering my armies facing off against them, Dark Elves and Skaven, so they seemed pretty good to me. I do see against regular Empire and Dwarf players, they may not be as great.

Most of my argument is still from a 'prefer the old style Chaos' standpoint if I'm honest. That may not hold a great deal of water, but its where I'm at.

Wow, thats alot of posts in a day. Thanks for the feedback. So RIP beasts of chaos, at least they still have more units than Necrons... I think so Phil and Andy didn't do the worst. I had a look at the new book... it seems so plain and basic like foundations of a proper army book. I feel sorry for those keen beastmen players. Thanks you guys

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Ah well, aye, to be fair I'm talking from a point of view of reading the book and considering my armies facing off against them, Dark Elves and Skaven, so they seemed pretty good to me. I do see against regular Empire and Dwarf players, they may not be as great.

Yeah, I can see where you come from, they look wild on paper, but for the Cygor and Jabber, the 8th edition changes to how the BSB works kind of killed their abilities. They are essentialy now an overpriced stone thrower(cygor) and warmachine hunter(Jabber). Magic Spells and Harpies can do what they can for less. I'm sure someone has a story where a Jabber wiped out an entire goblin army or a Cygor caused a wizard to explode catastrophically, but with 8th editions changes, that isn't something you see very much, if at all.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Most of my argument is still from a 'prefer the old style Chaos' standpoint if I'm honest. That may not hold a great deal of water, but its where I'm at.

I definitely agree, having all of those options is what originally drove me to create a huge chaos force. In larger/friendlier games I field them as a combined force, like the old days! My argument is that Beastmen didn't really lose much when they lost the stuff listed in this thread. I'm not trying to say you are wrong in your viewpoint or anything douchey like that. Just that it wasn't that big a deal. For me at least.

Phazael wrote:I actually won games mroe than I lost with the previous book, even post seperation when we lost all the magic items and Daemon options. The old raiders herds were FAR superio to the current ranked brown orcs we are stuck with now. Chariots and Minos got absolutely decimated with the nerf bat. Wizards lost their (formerly modest) hand to hand ability. All psyche protection got stripped from the army.

I can't really agree with Mino's and chariots getting nerfed. Current Bloodgreed rule is infinitely better then its old rule of pursuing 3d6. No Impact hits in the old book, no frenzy when a combat is won, no bonus attacks for each won combat after that. And they gained stomp in 8th. And they got light armour (for what its worth) included. Only thing they lost was being taken as core when a Mino Lord is taken. Chariots remained the same, but lost the tuskgor charge, but became cheaper, their role is still the same. 8th edition also got rid of the s7 auto kill rule too. I will agree that the shaman staff rule was pretty neat though, I miss that. As far as psych protection, BSB changes, along with Fear changes in 8th kind of make psych protection redundant.

Phazael wrote: Let me put this into perspective. The entire book got hammered so bad that a formerly useless core choice that is now a special choice (Worstigors) are now considered a mandatory unit by many who play the army. Never mind the fact that 2hw gors are mathematically superior, everyone runs a giant Bestigor Deathstar with the standard of discipline and huddles their entire army around the damn unit, because they have no other choice.

Again, that has more to do with changes to the new edition. I don't think anything got nerfed to the point where Bestigors became mandatory. 8th editions Step up and Horde rule just makes the prospect of multiple ranks of re-rollable s6 attacks a good choice. And I'm pretty sure that at some point 1 re-rollable s6 attack beats out 2 re-rollable s3 attacks. I believe that Bestigors are some of the top infantry in the game in 8th.

Phazael wrote:I tried to make book work for quite a while and every build that seemed to work was something that could be done better for less points in other armies. It pains me, too, because I really enjoyed playing this army and won a lot with it under the prior book (using a Shaggoth Lord for a general, no less), but now its just plain aweful.

Only advice I can give is check out The Herdstone, a beastman centric forum for tactics and list building advice, and listen to the Beastmen review that Bad Dice podcast came out with a week or two ago. Some solid advice on both. Only thing I can say is don't give up and try out different things, we're not a top tier army by any stretch, but we can in fact hang with some of the best.

streamdragon wrote:I do find it strange that Beastmen can't have units like Ogres, Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoths, etc. etc. Creatures of chaos much like the beastmen themselves. Yet they do get access to Chaos Spawn. They also, strangely, have access to Harpies, which normally run with Dark Elves, not Warriors or Daemons of Chaos at all!

Beastmen are chaos-born. They are the Children of Chaos. Entirely new species that came into being because of the Old One's gate going boom and unleashing chaos. It's repeatedly stated that the Chaos Gods pretty much ignore the Beastmen because they know they own them already. As opposed to WoC, which they tempt and bargain with. Beastmen exist because they breed with other Beastmen. They would be Beastmen regardless of where they were. A Chaos Troll exists because a normal Troll got warped by being near some rift or other. WoC exists because they live up North and snort Chaos Juice™. If they moved to Altdorf, their grandkids would be Empire Flagellants or whatever. But if Beastmen spread to Lustria, they'd still be Beastmen. Harpies are Children of Chaos. A new species come from Chaos.

Beastmen would have every reason to hate Dragon Ogres and Shaggoth--who actually predate chaos in this world. Those guys just made deals with the Chaos Gods, like WoC. They pretty much have nothing in common at all. The only thing that doesn't really make sense is having Giants in Beastmen, as the Beastmen are about the most racist, genocidal species around, they'd eat up the Giants. They're not ones to enter into bargains of convenience. They're monomaniacal. Anything that's not them is food.

Daemons, of course, are Daemons. They're poofed into existence by the Chaos Gods directly. I could certainly see them working with Beastmen, just like them working with WoC.

Daemons, of course, are Daemons. They're poofed into existence by the Chaos Gods directly

Not entirely, a daemon can wander into the material plane from any open rift or portal, not every daemon is spawned at the behest of the Gods.

I dont see how this racial superiority complex thing prevents beastmen from working with mortals, Ogres, trolls and so on. Chaos armies dont usually come together because they like each other, but because they happens have a common cause. (Fighting Empire, Dwarves, Elves or another Chaos army) Or there is a champion in favor of the dark gods leading them.

They'd readily turn on each other if either of those two conditions above no longer applies (The battle is over or if the champion dies), in fact thats why they ended up losing most of the time. (Other then the fact GW cant let them win, wont be good for their sales.)

All Daemons are created from the Chaos gods. The fact they can enter through rifts doesn't change that. "Spawned" as in come into this world doesn't matter so much. The daemons are pretty independent-minded, though they still work indirectly for their host master, because they created them and it's in their nature.

I dont see how this racial superiority complex thing prevents beastmen from working with mortals, Ogres, trolls and so on

You got to read the book. GW made all the races kind of hate each other so there's a legit reason why you see "good" races fighting each other, etc. But Beastmen are really explicit about it. They absolutely despise everyone. They're...beasts. Howl at the moon kind of stuff. They don't know how to make armor, weapons or even shelter. They're like Bloodletter daemons. They just live to kill. You're not going to talk to a Bloodletter, a Bloodthirster...maybe.

DukeRustfield wrote:All Daemons are created from the Chaos gods. The fact they can enter through rifts doesn't change that. "Spawned" as in come into this world doesn't matter so much. The daemons are pretty independent-minded, though they still work indirectly for their host master, because they created them and it's in their nature.

I dont see how this racial superiority complex thing prevents beastmen from working with mortals, Ogres, trolls and so on

You got to read the book. GW made all the races kind of hate each other so there's a legit reason why you see "good" races fighting each other, etc. But Beastmen are really explicit about it. They absolutely despise everyone. They're...beasts. Howl at the moon kind of stuff. They don't know how to make armor, weapons or even shelter. They're like Bloodletter daemons. They just live to kill. You're not going to talk to a Bloodletter, a Bloodthirster...maybe.

I read a lot actually, I just dont interpret it the way you do.
They do make all those things, Ungors make them, otherwise did those Bestigors just happens to found a giant stock pile of great axes and armors that fit them?

I am pretty sure this "Cant work with other chaos faction because they hate them" BS came about this edition as a poor excuse for not letting them run with WoC or DoC. I recalled reading somewhere that Beastmen have a natural empathy towards Chaos which leads them to fight alongside other Chaos warbands often.

Edit: Actually I found it! http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gor

Well, the present army book is the first tiome we have Cygors/Ghorgons/Jabbers, also the arrow shooting ungor raiders, harpies. I miss my daemon unit, and I also am scratching my head that a race that hates mankind adopted human battle formations instead of their old unruly loose skirmisher formations. Things were slightly changed, and then cost shot up! From like 95pts for a lord to 145?? seriously, for just a slight tweak to LD?

Also, the only thing that helps is the Primal Fury rules, the new ambush roll has a different feel and has not helped me very much.

Also, Gors still are S3 and unarmored, but have a I3, why if they gave no impediment to their mobility and agility do they have the initiative of armored foes?

I also have found Lore of Shadows more effective than Beasts for magic.

I always hated going against gunlines, but now, I used to be able to defeat Rats, but can't seem to with the new ways, and so far have only beaten Vampires consistently.

So many of the other armies have models flowing more readily and I suspect the slow down of beats purchases has slowed our support. Where is my Jabber? or Ghorgon? I mean if you are gonna make us like all the plainer armies, at leats get us some of our monsters, but no, the Orks got their superspider right out of the gate, I got just new minos, the rats got NEW Doomwheel, and bell, and that new rat horror and choppy ball. Beastmen got revised versions of stuff we already had!

Trolls OP? with stupidity? seriously? In 6th ed, my beasts were running wild and doing well, except the Imperial Gunlines. Missed 7th, and 8th has been a struggle to figure out the new book abilities, also the reliance on special and named characters is moot as our local group and tourney master hates those so I have to pay for the generic leaders and stuff.

shasolenzabi wrote:Well, the present army book is the first tiome we have Cygors/Ghorgons/Jabbers, also the arrow shooting ungor raiders, harpies. I miss my daemon unit, and I also am scratching my head that a race that hates mankind adopted human battle formations instead of their old unruly loose skirmisher formations. Things were slightly changed, and then cost shot up! From like 95pts for a lord to 145?? seriously, for just a slight tweak to LD?

Also, the only thing that helps is the Primal Fury rules, the new ambush roll has a different feel and has not helped me very much.

Also, Gors still are S3 and unarmored, but have a I3, why if they gave no impediment to their mobility and agility do they have the initiative of armored foes?

I also have found Lore of Shadows more effective than Beasts for magic.

You missed 7th, otherwise you would have not enjoy your skirmishing herds (VC gives you a headache for not having static CR) Skirmishers arent that great in 8th either. (Look at WE)

Initiative has nothing to do with armor, a Chaos Warrior armored head to toe has I5. Gors really arent on the same level of agility as I4 people like Elves.

On another note, atleast you did get something new, unlike certain other armies...

I read a lot actually, I just dont interpret it the way you do.
They do make all those things, Ungors make them, otherwise did those Bestigors just happens to found a giant stock pile of great axes and armors that fit them?

Yes, that is exactly what they do. If you read the Bestigor entry, and all the other entries, that's what they do. Ungors merely "bind and fix" weapons. They steal their weapons and armor from those they kill and dump them in piles at the herdstones--that's where it says Beastigors and Minotaurs both get their equipment. From the sacrifices of enemies at the Herdstones, and both those guys get first pick at times of war.

Lexicanicum isn't the army book. That quote is not from the latest book. This quote is:

"The warherds lack the respplendent weapons and baroque armour of the human servants of the Chaos Gods, for the Beastmen already belong to the Ruinous Powers and the gods have no need to bargain such trinkets in exchange for their souls. This only serves to increase the jealous ire that the Beastmen have for their human contemporaries."

The whole paragraph from the lex is gone. As it pertained to former rules. It now starts, "The live in savage bands called warherds, [snip]." "[snip] Beastmen are as close to animals as they are to men [snip]"

There is no provision for non-Beastmen Champions as per the lex. There is no non-Beastmen anything in the book.

I'm not saying it's Right or Wrong. But they specifically wrote the lore in such a way it makes no sense for them to be led by a human. Their ultimate goal is the extermination of all non-Beastmen. That certainly isn't the WoC goal.

Jackster wrote:
You missed 7th, otherwise you would have not enjoy your skirmishing herds (VC gives you a headache for not having static CR) Skirmishers arent that great in 8th either. (Look at WE)

Initiative has nothing to do with armor, a Chaos Warrior armored head to toe has I5. Gors really arent on the same level of agility as I4 people like Elves.

On another note, atleast you did get something new, unlike certain other armies...

So I have heard, 7th didn't last long.

Yeah, I get it. Beasts are slow, unarmored, and have to rely on massed numbers and big guys to get anything done. Magic is mediocre. I dunno, WE pretty much trounced me with the shooting and a few other things.

Revamped models of units that already existed, maybe a couple of new metals. Nothing new in the area of models to support entries like Ghorgon/Cygor/Jabberslythe. It was a very minimalized release and we have not seen the amount of model flow the rats got , or the Orks are getting. If I want to use the Cygor/Ghorgon, my giant has to play the part for now.

We already had gors/ungors/bestigors/chariots/hounds/minotaurs and Doombull. NO monsters came with the release schedule, and for how many of those that got put into the book, all I have is the giant.

So, the hounds went to plastic.
Minotaurs went to plastic.
Gors and Ungors got put into separate boxes.
Ungor raiders are new, but are no way a game breaker in any sense.
New metallic Doom/Gorebull
New shaman that looks like the Jersey Devil.

Skaven got a lot of revamps, and NEW models and a separate livery book. And that Pit Horror kit.
Orks schedule shows all sorts of revamps, and that new Arachnid, and the new plastic trolls were theirs.

I now have trolls my beasts have no use for, Daemons I have to place elsewhere, AND I have to now block formation just like the civilized armies, making it so much easier to fall victim to my old nemesis, shooting., and the loss of skirmisher status means my units now only see forwards.

They totally re-worked the beasts to be a HtH, unarmored, magically so-so, army that could have benefited from the Tyranid like ability to take massive amounts of troops to make up for the fact that But they also made the leaders and such more expensive than they were before. Making a hordey option difficult at lower points costs if I want any sort of hitting power. GW drivbe me nuts where the beasts are concerned. It is the Rats that get the love.

Ofcourse the latest army book says that, that's what GW wanted!
Nevermind that Beastmen shows up alongside mortals and daemons in many BL novels and fluff previously.
It's like the stupid CSM fluff in their current book.

Hey I just want join in your sentiment, while I don't play Beastmen, I do play chaos . . .and I hate all the re-writing of chaos. I started playing less 40L with my black legion when "generic daemons" showed up and I am just as annoyed with the "kum bay ya" daemon armies. Why Tzeentch and Nurgle daemons (manifestations of their will) get along and joins armies together, I don't get. They are supposed to hate each other.
I've actually been thinking of starting a Beastman army, but the lack of daemonic marks makes me less interested

I understand why Daemons get along sometimes. They point that out all over the book. Daemons are daemons. They don't die. So it's not like they're losing anything at any point really. And they don't really NEED anything in the mortal world. They just kinda like doing stuff. I mean, it'd be great to invade the mortal realm permanantly, but short of that, they're kind of just goofing off.

Like Nurgle wants to spread disease and death. If a bunch of Khorne guys will help, fine. And Khorne wants to hack stuff apart, if they feel they'll be in a better tactical position with some Beasts of Nurgle, sure.

The Great Game is neverending and really, they play it for the game's sake itself. No one god can ever conquer the others, they need each other.