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So now that 8th edition has been out and played a bit, I figure let's make a thread on army tiers. Really there are only 3 tiers to bother with:

High
Mid
Low

High tier armies are ones where winning comes naturally and have either foolproof builds around or are the armies winning tournies above most others. In 7th it was Daemons and Vampires, both of which got hit hard as I understand.

Mid tier armies are ones where they aren't faceroll easy winning, but are decent in their current rules. Empire is almost always in this category as they are good at many things while not great at any single thing(gunlines don't count as being "good" at something).

Low tier armies are those where it takes serious skill tactically or major luck on the dice to win. These armies are most in need of rules updates to compensate for changes in 8th edition. Beastmen come to mind, which is a shame as I know they won't be redone for some years. Wood Elves also come to mind.

So where do you all rank the current books?

I swear I've seen this thread before, but okay, here are the tiers as I know them

High - Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos, High Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven, Daemons of Chaos

Middle - Empire, Orcs & Goblins, Vampire Counts, Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms

Low - Brettonians, Wild Elves, Tomb Kings, Beastmen


That's really simplistic though. Some armies (Daemons of Chaos for instance) compete better in higher point value games, and certain Ogre Kingdoms builds are incredibly competitive.

High: Lizardmen, Skaven, Dwarfs

Middle: Everyone Else

Low: Wood Elves, Tomb Kings

Based on the last GT season results and playtesting a lot of armies in prep for our own events, I would have to say:

High- Skaven, Dark Elves, Empire

Mid- Dwarves, Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos at the top of the mid tier, Tomb Kings and Orcs (new book and old) at the bottom of the mid tier, with everyone else in the center

Low- Wood Elves, then Beastmen at the very bottom.

Are Dark Elves really considered that good nowadays? Hm.

Kirbinator wrote:Are Dark Elves really considered that good nowadays? Hm.

Shocks me too, the first time I read the 8th rules I thought we'd be at best med tier.
I guess our book is really that good if we are still high tier after most of our awesome 7th ed units got nerfed.

aerethan wrote:So now that 8th edition has been out and played a bit, I figure let's make a thread on army tiers. Really there are only 3 tiers to bother with:

High
Mid
Low

High tier armies are ones where winning comes naturally and have either foolproof builds around or are the armies winning tournies above most others. In 7th it was Daemons and Vampires, both of which got hit hard as I understand.

Mid tier armies are ones where they aren't faceroll easy winning, but are decent in their current rules. Empire is almost always in this category as they are good at many things while not great at any single thing(gunlines don't count as being "good" at something).

Low tier armies are those where it takes serious skill tactically or major luck on the dice to win. These armies are most in need of rules updates to compensate for changes in 8th edition. Beastmen come to mind, which is a shame as I know they won't be redone for some years. Wood Elves also come to mind.

So where do you all rank the current books?

Tiers:

High: Highly skilled players
Mid: Average Players
Low: Wood Elves and Beastmen ;p

While that gave me a good chuckle, high tier armies can be played by mid tier people, and in the case of 7th edition, the top 2 armies could be played by a powder monkey and still win.

The entire point of army tiers is to disregard player skill on look at the armies objectively. Just because I want MY army to be top tier doesn't mean it is.(oddly it appears to be the case though as I play Dark Elves and High Elves currently).

If anything by ranking with players you could say wood elves are top tier in the right hands. So removing players is the only way to rank the armies as not all players are created equal. Not to say that armies are created equal either, but there is less shift in performance looking solely at the books as they stand. Also books can't learn to be better books.

aerethan wrote:Also books can't learn to be better books.

Sure they can, you just have to hit them harder.

If we are talking armies specifically the High Tier ones are the most forgiving, they should be the Space Marines of Fantasy. I see WOC, Skaven, O&G, and DOC as the high tier ones with the other armies in the middle. The two low tier armies I would say have to be Wood Elves and Beastmen even though they can be used to effectivly crush any other army.

Ok, I have to ask, what exactly is it that makes beastmen 'suck'
I mean sure minotaurs with greatweapons got hit pretty hard, they still look alright

It does depend on the player, but I would say that High Elves are definatly top tier, simply becasue fo The Speed Of Asuryan.
However, in 2000-2500 point games, Ogres can be incredibly competitive, especially if you are running a horde unit of bulls, 12-18. Nothing can stand up to that, it's even better if you gut magic buff them.

However, Ogres don't compete below 1000 ish points.

I would say, that even though there are better armies than others, and that it depends on the player, the build and the dice.

Oh, and the alignment of mercury retrograde.

Kirbinator wrote:Are Dark Elves really considered that good nowadays? Hm.

Only if you run builds that focus exclusively on magic. Most of the actual units in the Dark Elf book are really mediocre, now.

High Elves are high tier, definetly. Army-wide ASF and some of the most potent magic.

Cerebrium wrote:High Elves are high tier, definetly. Army-wide ASF and some of the most potent magic.

Eh, not really. Like Dark Elves, their magic heavy builds can be considered high tier, but otherwise High Elves are a mid-tier army. Sure, they have ASF. They also have Toughness 3 and poor armor saves, in an edition where they face more attacks than ever before (thanks to the step up rule, the increased focus on ranged attacks and the dominance of war machines).

happydude wrote:

aerethan wrote:So now that 8th edition has been out and played a bit, I figure let's make a thread on army tiers. Really there are only 3 tiers to bother with:

High
Mid
Low

High tier armies are ones where winning comes naturally and have either foolproof builds around or are the armies winning tournies above most others. In 7th it was Daemons and Vampires, both of which got hit hard as I understand.

Mid tier armies are ones where they aren't faceroll easy winning, but are decent in their current rules. Empire is almost always in this category as they are good at many things while not great at any single thing(gunlines don't count as being "good" at something).

Low tier armies are those where it takes serious skill tactically or major luck on the dice to win. These armies are most in need of rules updates to compensate for changes in 8th edition. Beastmen come to mind, which is a shame as I know they won't be redone for some years. Wood Elves also come to mind.

So where do you all rank the current books?

Tiers:

High: Highly skilled players
Mid: Average Players
Low: Wood Elves and Beastmen ;p

THIS!!!!!

I think as of now most armies are such that it is the good (and of course the lucky) players that come out on top..os parity was more or less restored when 8th ed came out.....

all in all, skill wins most games....

Krellnus wrote:Ok, I have to ask, what exactly is it that makes beastmen 'suck'
I mean sure minotaurs with greatweapons got hit pretty hard, they still look alright

The meat of our book, most importantly Gors, are overcosted.

All of our (model lacking) rare selections besides the generic giant and spawn are overcosted.

Centigors are overcosted.

Bestigors are overcosted.

Magic item department is bad. I cannot begin to fathom the thoughts behind the justification of 100 points for the Primeval club.

No armor across the board for any of our Core besides chariots, not even light armor for a 8 point Gor.

I agree with everyone's assessment that Wood Elves and Beastmen are in the lowest tier.

I'm finding that the armies seem to be more closely balanced now than in 8th. Some armies have some power builds that give them an edge in tournament situations, but outside of 'Ard Boyz, I don't see those builds much, even in tournaments.

In response to the Speed of Asuryan mini-debate, the rule does give the army some power, but in this day of 40 hammerer, grave guard, and GW marauders, the high cost of high elves elite infantry keeps them balanced. Sure the horde might loose 15 guys before it strikes, but it wil; still get its full compliment of attacks. Most units can decimate T3, low army targets.

That said, in the tournaments that I have played, the tiers look like this:

Top: Dark Elf, Skaven

Mid: Everyone Else

Low: Tomb Kings, Bretonians

I saw Beastmen on a few low tier lists, but the beastman player around here is having some success with a heavy infantry army (no minotaurs, chariots, or monsters). It might just be his individual skill though, but the army seems like it works ok. On the other hand, I don't see how Bretonians and Tomb Kings can compete consistently. Their stone throwers do some damage, but otherwise, Tomb King blocks seem to instant crumble and Bretonians seem completely hosed by steadfast. One local player has taken to relying heavily on peasants, which seems to be better but is still really weak.

I haven't seen an Ogre or Wood Elf army in this edition, so I don't have a comment on them.

Vampire Counts are pretty solid low tier. People just remember from when they were overpowered for a few months in 7th edition before Demons came out and the label stuck longer than it was accurate.

Cerebrium wrote:High Elves are high tier, definetly. Army-wide ASF and some of the most potent magic.

I disagree, yes they have good magic, and ASF but thats about it.

Their entire army is T3 pretty much with rarely better then a 5+ armor save. Most decent shooting in the game has you testing at a -2ish armor, so that doesnt matter.

Also that magic that they are so good at casting, also wreaks complete havoc on them. Again T3 with low armor, they just get shredded.

ASF is not nearly as powerful as it used to be. sure you kill a lot of models before they do, but unless you kill enough to deny some hits back, you are going to take some hurt.

TBH the only thing in the HE book that I genuinely worry about is swordmasters. However with T3 and a 5+ save they normally dont see combat before they are blown off the table.

my tier list

High- Skaven, Lizards

Mid- everything else

Low- WE, Beastmen

I could almost argue Daemons are high tier too. Greater daemons are still very very nasty, flamers are, imo, the best ranged unit in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:Vampire Counts are pretty solid low tier. People just remember from when they were overpowered for a few months in 7th edition before Demons came out and the label stuck longer than it was accurate.

I disagree, guy at my shop plays VC with very good results.

The WS10, KB, speed of lighted grave guard star with regen is stupid good.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:High Elves are high tier, definetly. Army-wide ASF and some of the most potent magic.

I disagree, guy at my shop plays VC with very good results.

The WS10, KB, speed of lighted grave guard star with regen is stupid good.

I play this list and its decent. It's highly elite so it is very vulnerable to spells that target units and removes models with no saves (Dwellers from Below, Purple Sun). In addition with the new regen rules any flaming attacks neuter the main strength of the unit (its survivability) since any remaining attacks ignore the 4+ save. It's also expensive to run the bunker and Vampire Lord this requires along with 25% of the army being generally decent to worthless core which will not see much use other than a speed bump so the game devolves into a big slog in the middle of the table as your opponent tries to wade through the mess of graveguard or just runs away from it. Either way it's not an exciting list to play and has some pretty huge weaknesses. But it is probably the one decent list that Vampires can put together but I don't think that elevates it up to middle ground.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:Are Dark Elves really considered that good nowadays? Hm.

Only if you run builds that focus exclusively on magic. Most of the actual units in the Dark Elf book are really mediocre, now.

8th hit them very little, if at all. Black Guard took minor hits with step up. The Cauldron cannot play challenge games to live longer. Dark Riders lost some utility with the general nerfing of fast cavalry. Outside of that, they did not get touched. In fact, they improved massively in some areas (Hydras got better with stomp and breathing into CC, Lore of Shadows + Witches = total decimation, 3 wound reverse ward save dark peg heros, ect). The light crossbowmen are still easily the best ranged infantry unit in the game and the still have a vast variety of synergy in their list. The only reason I rate the skaven above them is that L10 stubborn slave blocks of infinity and the Storm Banner are stupidly good.

Vamps are still a solid mid tier list, thanks to loremaster on every wizard and ghouls being a very powerful core choice. The simple ability to execute turn one ghoul charges gives them a massive tactical edge that no other army has. Toss in Bloodknight deathstar units, who resist most of the more killy spells out there, and the army has some solid combat options open to it. I guess no one in your area has the Occums Mind Razor turn one ghoul charge trick in their army, or you would not put them in the same bracket as Beasts and WE. Really, the only thing keeping them out of the top tier is a complete lack of participation in the shooting phase (arguably the strongest phase in 8th).

Beasts suck for many reasons, but the main one is that they are really just overpriced brown orcs. The 2hw Gor (the only sane way to field them) is outclassed by every core infantry model in the game, including ones much cheaper than it. The entire army is ultra dependant on the general, which leads to it turtling around him. Finally, the complete removal of raiders left the army completely vulnerable to shooting. So you have panic prone overprized units that cannot withstand the weakest shooting around. Yeah a good general can win with the army, but the same guy would be wrecking hobbies if he was using even the modestly better Orc and Goblin book.

Brute forcing through spells with the dagger that gives you extra dice for killing dudes combined with power of darkness is also really great.

Phazael wrote:

SkaerKrow wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:Are Dark Elves really considered that good nowadays? Hm.

Only if you run builds that focus exclusively on magic. Most of the actual units in the Dark Elf book are really mediocre, now.

8th hit them very little, if at all. Black Guard took minor hits with step up. The Cauldron cannot play challenge games to live longer. Dark Riders lost some utility with the general nerfing of fast cavalry. Outside of that, they did not get touched. In fact, they improved massively in some areas (Hydras got better with stomp and breathing into CC, Lore of Shadows + Witches = total decimation, 3 wound reverse ward save dark peg heros, ect). The light crossbowmen are still easily the best ranged infantry unit in the game and the still have a vast variety of synergy in their list. The only reason I rate the skaven above them is that L10 stubborn slave blocks of infinity and the Storm Banner are stupidly good

With respect, your views seem to be out of touch with reality.

Black Guard took a pretty considerable hit in that they now suffer more casualties than ever before, and are seriously hampered by Steadfast. You see, Black Guard units cannot be larger than 20 models. This means they cannot muster more than four ranks (before they get utterly plastered by every stone thrower in the game, a new level of vulnerability that you've overlooked), which seriously hampers their ability to contend with deep steadfast units.

Dark Riders lost a tremendous amount of function, and are now a completely inferior choice to Harpies. Where before you could use Dark Riders to create meaningful crossfire and flanking opportunities, they are now relegated to chasing down fleeing units, which is what almost all cavalry in the game is now used for. Why take Dark Riders when Harpies do that same job better, while still being a cheaper option? Unless your opponents consistently runs Lore of Heavens or one of the items that hamper fliers (which very few players actually bother with), it's an easy choice.

Nearly every single unit in the game that fights a Hydra is Steadfast. Do they inflict more damage? Yes, but they also struggle mightily now to actually break units. They did not get better, they roughly broke even.

"Lore of Shadows + Witches =" what? Occam's Mindrazor? If you get the spell, yes, that's a nice combination. It also relies on the army to get the spell. And I already mentioned that magic heavy Dark Elf builds are still powerful, so you're not really doing anything to counter that assertion by telling me that Dark Elves using magic can be powerful. Dark Pegasus Heroes with the Pendant of Khalaeth? That's not a selling point for the army, and is frankly a tremendous waste of a good magic item. Repeater Crossbowmen are far from the best missile troops in the game. That honor goes to Dwarf Thunderers, who are better fighters in close combat and armed with a far superior weapon.

Now, allow me to further expand upon what Dark Elves lost. The Reaper Bolt Thrower is now so laughably fragile that it no longer has any place on the battlefield. The change to the rules for psychology affecting mounts (and vice versa) hurt Cold One Knights, Dark Riders, Manticore riders and Black Dragons. And while the Black Dragon is still viable, Cold Ones, Dark Steeds and Manticores are appreciably less effective without the ability to re-roll to hit during the first round of combat (the Manticore also no longer grants extra attacks to its rider when it frenzies, which is also noteworthy). Shades used to be a fierce close combat unit, but now that combat skirmish units have lost so much of their function (see: their new formation and the introduction of Steadfast), they're a far more limited troop choice. Dark Elf Assassins are now an incredible waste of points, as they almost invariably die on the turn that they are revealed. Where before you could use them to give teeth to the largely toothless Dark Elf infantry selection, they're now more of a liability than an asset.

Despite all of this, I do not believe that Dark Elves are a terrible army. They're about mid-tier, and they rely heavily on match-ups. Unless you build them with a heavy focus on magic, in which case luck with some of the nastier spells in the game can definitely see you through against most any opponent. They are no longer a consistently top-tier army however, and anyone that asserts otherwise is still deeply entrenched in a 7th Edition mentality.

No one competitively out on the west coast has taken a bolt thrower in almost three years, so I am not sure how much of a tragedy that was. The Dragon occasionally got fielded in competitive play, but Cold one Knights and Manticores? And your saying I am out of touch with reality?

Thunderers can sort of fight, but realistically, they do not out shoot Crossbowmen, who can also move while they shoot, mind you. Black Guard, as I said, took a small hit, but they are still just as killy and have built in stubborn. I guess this might seem like a nerf if you were the kind of player who plopped 20 of them down with the ASF banner and ring of hotek and just let them win games for you, but not to worry: the hydra is better than ever. Its just that now, they take a back seat to witch elves, who synergize with Mind Razor and debuff spells better.

On the topic of Occums Mind Razor, you have something like a 6% chance of NOT getting the spell if you take a Tome of Furion (0% if you take a second wizard) and even without it, debuffing a unit into childhood is enough to make the witches stupidly powerful. Access to Shadow combined with their high attack per model rate has added a lot more to the army than it took away. Shadow also lets them pound their worst matchups where it hurts the most (hi2u Dwarves and Lizards), with Pit of Shades erasing large swathes of infantry off of the table. And thanks to Druchi Sorcery, you don't even need luck to push the key spell through (hooray for 9 dice Occums casts) when you need it.

Not sure why you are upset about the assasins, as they were never meant as a magic automatic character slayer. Of course, you also complained about Shades, which unless Harpies suddenly became L9, WS/BS5, gained scout, and started carrying crossbows, I am pretty sure they do not replace shades. If you are the kind of guy who ran Shadestar, it still works fine with Manbaned ninjastars, so your units have a role, unlike say half the Orc and Goblin book that was JUST RELEASED....

Honestly, the 3 blocks of witches with a L4 and two hydra list (note: no shooting) wrecked people way worse than any 7th edition DoC list I ever ran did. The GTs our crew has run (and ones I have personally attended) have showed the same trends, as well: DE armies built aound two hydras, some shooting, and a L4 Shadow wizard dominate anything other than Skaven. It almost does not matter what else you run in the army. Fun Fact: West Coast Hard Boys winner was a Dark Elven player running witches, Shadow Magic, Hydras, and a Peg guy with the reverse ward. He stomped a Lizardmen army, Skaven army, and Dwarf army in the finals. I feel pretty confident that reality sides with me on this one.

So, unless you have some GT battle point statistics to back up your point (I have a years worth, btw), I think you are basing your assertions on theoryhammer. That you even mentioned Manticores and Cold One Knights in the context of competitive play makes me wonder who you are even playing with in your area.