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Simple to explain:
Chaos defiler:
Shooting phase, choose to run, THEN pop smoke...
Is it legal?

No. Also, smoke is popped at the end of the movement phase.

Then I got it wrong in the first place (perhaps because you can choose between shooting or popping smoke, but not both), thank you.

You can move and pop smoke. You can then run.

You can even pop smoke if stunned.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You can move and pop smoke. You can then run.

You can even pop smoke if stunned.

How?? From what I see in the BRB, you can pop smove and not fire, and in order to run you have to not fire, but you already chose to give up your shooting phase that turn to pop smoke. I can understand what I think your saying, that you choose to run instead of shoot, and seeing as you can't fire cause you popped smoke, you could run, but just seems cheap and not legal, IMHO.

Of course, if someone did this to me, I would tell them sure you can run, but if you do, you lose the 4+ cause you ran out of the smoke cloud.

once again, just my opinion. Seems like you could do one instead of the other, not both.

You choose to run, and in return you cannot shoot.

There is no rule saying that if you cannot shoot, you cannot run. You also keep emitting smoke and drag the cloud with you

Cf to the Eldar Star Engines, which allow them to move in the shooting phase and cannot shoot weapons. The FAQ states that yes, this happens even if the vehicle couldnt shoot.

Finally, consider this: if being able to shoot is a requirement of being able to run "instead", then genestealers can NEVER run. Ever.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Finally, consider this: if being able to shoot is a requirement of being able to run "instead", then genestealers can NEVER run. Ever.

This is covered in the rules for running, didn't mean for it to be interpreted that you had to shoot or you couldn't run. I thought I was clear with the you have to not fire in order to be able to run, not that you had to be able to shoot, sorry for the miscommunication.

But there is this from the latest GW FAQ:

Q: Can smoke launchers be used after a walker makes a
Run! or consolidation move? (p62)
A: No, they can only be used in the Movement phase.

Which address a slightly different issue.

Time -that was answered in the first post, that you can only Smoke (at end of movement) THEN run, not the other way around.

In essence - you can always smoke, even if you cannot shoot.

[Rulebook pg 72: Walkers Shooting]
"Alternatively, they can choose to run like infantry, and this prevents them from firing and assaulting that turn, as normal (though they can still trigger their smoke launchers, if they have any)."

Seems pretty clear to me.

True enough, but the FAQ confuses rather than clarifies!
It would have been clearer if they had answered that a walker can move, then use smoke launchers and then still run.
It cannot however run and then use its smoke launchers.
Which seems odd, because in both cases you are moving and then running, but that's the rules!

Galador wrote:
How?? From what I see in the BRB, you can pop smove and not fire, and in order to run you have to not fire, but you already chose to give up your shooting phase that turn to pop smoke. I can understand what I think your saying, that you choose to run instead of shoot, and seeing as you can't fire cause you popped smoke, you could run, but just seems cheap and not legal, IMHO.

Of course, if someone did this to me, I would tell them sure you can run, but if you do, you lose the 4+ cause you ran out of the smoke cloud.

once again, just my opinion. Seems like you could do one instead of the other, not both.

And I would tell you that your opinion is not backed by rules. You utilize smoke launchers at the end of a model's movement. Smoke launchers prevent shooting. In the shooting phase, a model may run if it did not fire in the shooting phase. No conflict.

Utilizing smoke launchers in the shooting phase is not allowed, as the FAQ addresses since they must be used during the movement phase.

EDIT: Beat by TC.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You choose to run, and in return you cannot shoot.

There is no rule saying that if you cannot shoot, you cannot run. You also keep emitting smoke and drag the cloud with you

Cf to the Eldar Star Engines, which allow them to move in the shooting phase and cannot shoot weapons. The FAQ states that yes, this happens even if the vehicle couldnt shoot.

Finally, consider this: if being able to shoot is a requirement of being able to run "instead", then genestealers can NEVER run. Ever.

You are made of RUDENESS IS NEVER NECESSARY AND ALWAYS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA FORUM RULES. MAKING AN ARGUMENT PERSONAL; RENDERING A NEGATIVE PERSONAL JUDGMENT ABOUT THE PERSON DEBATING WITH YOU, ALSO ALWAYS MAKES YOUR ARGUMENT LOOK WEAK. FOR THESE TWO REASONS, IT IS ALWAYS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE TO STAY POLITE AND NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL.

Smoke is popped at the end of the movement phase on the proviso that you cannot shoot. Shooting as an option is struck off the list of things you can do. Running is an action you can take in lieu of shooting. To run, you must be able to shoot.

True, genestealers can't shoot, but not because they are not allowed, they are simply unarmed. Being able to run is an alternative to shooting for non shooty units, units that have the option of shooting must trade that in order to run.

In my opinion, Can't shoot as popped smoke = cannot run - or popping smoke would have been reserved for the end of the shooting phase.

Hmmm, cheese...

I agree with nosferatu on this, there are lots of reasons why a unit might not be allowed to shoot, none of them prevents the unit from running except explicitly stated otherwise. Smoke Launchers do not explicitly disallow running, the only thing it disallows is "shooting any of its weapons", so a walker may run during its shooting phase as it could use any other special rule or non-shooting psychic power used during the shooting phase.

time wizard wrote:True enough, but the FAQ confuses rather than clarifies!
It would have been clearer if they had answered that a walker can move, then use smoke launchers and then still run.
It cannot however run and then use its smoke launchers.
Which seems odd, because in both cases you are moving and then running, but that's the rules!

Not really, I think it more highlights peoples lack of understand about the discreteness of rules.
I feel your last comment highlights this, here, the rules say;
"Once per game, after completing its move," For smoke.
"In his turn, a player may move any of his units" Movement rules.
"Infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase."
"In their Shooting phase, units may choose to run instead of firing, immediately moving D6".... Running movement is not." Shooting rules.

A 'move' clearly performed in the movement phase. "immediately moving D6" isn't a move, and isn't called one at any point.
Running is quite clearly not a move, otherwise it would say "may choose to move instead" (or 'make a move').

Phayse - your opinion does not jibe with the rules. Please look at the tenets of YMDC and note that you are supposed to present a rules argument. Especially when calling other players "cheesy" about a perfectly valid tactic.

Time - the FAQ just simply clarifies that, when they said you smoke in the Movement phase they meant exactly that. It states NOTHIGN about moving, smoking and then running (or being stunned and still being able to smoke)

@Phase: Run! is an action performed in leiu of shooting, if one could shoot or not is not an issue as "Units that are running (see overleaf)." is a provision to not shoot. There is no provision against running, it's an action done in place of shooting... Unless you think that no squad with a heavy weapon could ever move and run... as they would be unable to shoot, therefore unable to run by your reasoning.

Phayse wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You choose to run, and in return you cannot shoot.

There is no rule saying that if you cannot shoot, you cannot run. You also keep emitting smoke and drag the cloud with you

Cf to the Eldar Star Engines, which allow them to move in the shooting phase and cannot shoot weapons. The FAQ states that yes, this happens even if the vehicle couldnt shoot.

Finally, consider this: if being able to shoot is a requirement of being able to run "instead", then genestealers can NEVER run. Ever.

You are made of RUDENESS IS NEVER NECESSARY AND ALWAYS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA FORUM RULES.

Smoke is popped at the end of the movement phase on the proviso that you cannot shoot. Shooting as an option is struck off the list of things you can do. Running is an action you can take in lieu of shooting. To run, you must be able to shoot.

True, genestealers can't shoot, but not because they are not allowed, they are simply unarmed. Being able to run is an alternative to shooting for non shooty units, units that have the option of shooting must trade that in order to run.

In my opinion, Can't shoot as popped smoke = cannot run - or popping smoke would have been reserved for the end of the shooting phase.

You are made of TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. KNOCK IT OFF. Read the rules for Walkers popping smoke, they're even posted 3 posts above your falipost.

The FAQ clarifies the timing because smoke is a one-time deal. If a threat to the walker is neutralized in the shooting phase, a player may want to save their smoke for later. The FAQ prevents you from knowing the outcome of the shooting phase before deciding to smoke or not to smoke.

Btw Slave, care to provide a reference for your Hubbard quote, wouldn't want to be charged with libel for being funny

As noted...

1. The rulebook specifically says smoke is popped after completing the vehicle's movement. The FAQ reinforces this.
2. The walker section specifically says you can still pop smoke even if you can't shoot.
3. Running has no effect on your Smoked status.

Popping smoke is NOT done instead of shooting. It's a movement phase action which PREVENTS you from shooting.

Running, or Self-Repairing a Rhino, are done in place of shooting. Running you can still do even if you can't shoot, because the rulebook says so. Self-Repairing a Rhino you can't, because no exception is given.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:You are made of Fail. Read the rules for Walkers popping smoke, they're even posted 3 posts above your falipost.

Nah, I'm just made of incorrect. I am also made of fleshy squidgy bits and have a nice bum. Not epic, but still very nice. Very slappable. Also, please see my avatar. I come with a warning.

Finally, consider this: if being able to shoot is a requirement of being able to run "instead", then genestealers can NEVER run. Ever.

That was still quite a liberal interpretation, thusly a nice complement to rioja and crackers. Agree that it is beside the poiint though.

I must fly, for there are other situations in which to apply my foot in mouth kung fu.

ChrisCP wrote:Btw Slave, care to provide a reference for your Hubbard quote, wouldn't want to be charged with libel for being funny

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

Yeah, those nitwits can charge away.

Come on, what have your lecturers told you about using wiki as a reference "What led him to say what he did I can't recall — but in so many words Hubbard said..."

Well yeah, but being sued by dead people (even a self-made messiah dead people) is just as preposterous... but we digress.

You also neglect the fact that satire is protected from libel laws, at least here in the US.

time wizard wrote:True enough, but the FAQ confuses rather than clarifies!
It would have been clearer if they had answered that a walker can move, then use smoke launchers and then still run.
It cannot however run and then use its smoke launchers.
Which seems odd, because in both cases you are moving and then running, but that's the rules!

That's the point made by the FAQ. When you read the Smoke Launchers, it sounds as though you'd be able to do it anytime the Walker moves, but the FAQ is in place to specify that Smoke can only be launched in the movement phase.

Smoke launchers make it where you can not shoot. Running also means that you can not shoot. If you give up the option to shoot already, that doesn't mean that you can't do other things that prevent you from shooting.

Very well, besides all the flames and disputes I think got myself a couple of conclusions/tactics:

1.- Defilers and dreadnoughts (chaos player here) can advance up to 12" (6" then pop and run) and remain obscured.
2.- Rhinos can pop then attempt at repair if immobilized in the open, be it just for safety improvement.