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Haven't played 40k for a while, but am going to have a game soon. I have about 30 points to spare that I don't know what to spend on. Possibly it can do with some changes (not sure about the Jetbike unit there)

1 Farseer, Runes of Warding, Guide, Singing Spear
(Rides at the back in the DAVU falcon, guiding it and offering some psyker protection; singing spear is because I had 3 points under a multiple of 5, but can go if there's a re-shuffle)

1 Autarch, Fusion Gun


6 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent (Stones, Missile Launcher, Cannon)

6 Fire Dragons, Wave Serpent (Stones, Missile Launcher, Cannon)


5 Dire Avengers , Wave Serpent (Stones, Missile Launcher, Cannon)

5 Dire Avengers , Wave Serpent (Stones, Missile Launcher, Cannon)

5 Dire Avengers

6 Jetbikes, Warlock, Singing Spear, Embolden
This should read to have 2cannons, I forgot to type them in

1 Falcon, EML, Stones, Holofield

1 Fire Prism

1 Fire Prism


= 1720 points

Any ideas on what do do/cut to make it nearer 1750? any bad choices? (maybe the jetbikes don't fit in the mechanised?)

I assume the other avengers will be in the falcon with the farseer? If so, when it moves it will lose some of it's ability to shoot.

The prisms look like they need some protection to be honest. Spirit stones or holo fields?

I would be inclined to get another w/serpent, drop the bikes and take another farseer rather than the autarch. Either that or go for Eldrad as a single HQ.

I think the avengers in the falcon are just objective holders.

Yeah, the Avengers for the Falcon (and even the serpent) are objective holders mainly.

The Falcon stays back and shoots 48" (guided) at viable targets.

Dropping the bikes for another min-sized Avenger in a serpent might work, or maybe expanding the Avenger units?

Though they are normally safer inside vehicles, hence the small size for this list, especially as I'm low on close combat.

yeah if you drop the bikes and add another WS with X in it, troops I suppose, your entire army will be AV 12, Fast Skimming Tanks.

If you keep the bikes, I advise that you reserve them.

MM

I'd advise against the farseer's singing spear because you will NEVER use it and no point in modeling it just to burn points.

Also the Autuach really has no role here outside of his +1 reserves which doesn't really justify his points... you'll find that out over time though.

Stones and Cannons are unneeded upgrades... another thing you will find out with time along with Holo-fields are gold.

6 man Fire Dragons won't really do more then 5 man. You get out, something goes boom, and then they die a horrific death.

As for the advisc from Master, a 7 man can hold it's own weight and do some damage, but play them defensively and don't go all kamakazie. GJB fit perfectly into a mech list as it gives you some diversity and prevents the "oh crap my serpents are popped and not I have nothing but crap 5 man DA"

I think that may have been a typo, but get cannons on that GJB pack

He's a revision I would recommend that falls in line with the models you have listed...

Farseer w/ Both Runes, Fortune, Guide, Stones
Autauch w/ Fusion, PW

2x 5 Fire Dragons in Serpents w/ EML

2x 5 DA in Serpents w/ EML
5 DA (in Falcon)
6 GJB w/ 2 Cannons + Jetlock w/ Spear, Embolden

Falcon w/ EML, Holo, Stones
Fire Prism w/ Holo
Fire Prism w/ Holo

1745pts

I had the Dragons as 5 but ran out of points for a full other choice (and still had 30 left)

With the Shuriken Cannon, the reason I have it on (other than it's modelled) is if it comes to a time when I don't have transport to shoot at but there are infantry, I can shoot with that and the Plasma missile from 24"

The other changes look good to go in though. Who do you cast Fortune on, after the Jetbikes might get too far away?

Hey BlueDagger,

Just curious, why are stones a waste on WS?

If you have them you can still move. That to me is worth it in case I need contest, move away on comming assault, get a cover safe, move so that assaults hit on 6's.. things like that.

thanks

MM

Stones on a Serpent IMO is a waste because you are paying 10 pts for the "what if" scenario. If you stay at range and play smart then a stunned result shouldn't really become an issue. 1 Stone upgrade isn't horrible, the problem lies in mass stones upgrades get expensive fast and if you picking and choosing who gets them then you will find that you took your 1/6 chance of them being effective now add is which serpent will randomly get that result out of the ones you loaded them on. In his lsit as an example there is 50pts of stones... that's some vital fleshing out of equipment or units. Holofield vehicles have a MUCH larger chance of stunned, so their benefit is worth the upgrade cost.

Fortune in the list I posed is for a Dragon Serpent Full Outing up field, jetbikes, or the Farseer's unit inside the Falcon to protect for when/if the Falcon goes down.

Underslug cannons are:
- BS3 non-TL, so yay you get 1.5 shots average landing
- it's 24" range, pintle mounted a little way into the serpent. So now to fire it you have to be cautious of your facing and have to get in close which puts you in range of stuff that can hurt you back vs. keeping a 36"-48" range.
- It's S6, so to fire it you are going to have to move at a 6" pace (or fire it in conjunction with the S4 EML blast)
- It's AP5 so after having restricted the hell out of yourself, you land 1 maybe 2 shots off on a marine, fail to wound 17% of the time, and he saves 66% of the time (~80+ % of the time if it's FNP).

BlueDagger wrote:Stones and Cannons are unneeded upgrades...

I'm building a mechdar army now, and I used magnets so I can swap cannons in and out. I advise doing the same with yours. My wife got me the magnets below from thinkgeek, and was suprised to find I've been using them in my modeling! The different sizes are great for making heavy turrents swivel nicely, etc...
http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/science/770f/

BlueDagger wrote:another thing you will find out with time along with Holo-fields are gold.

The simhammer shows that holo-fields help the survivability of heavy support incredibly. My question is -- how often are your heavy support tanks shot at?

BlueDagger wrote:GJB fit perfectly into a mech list as it gives you some diversity and prevents the "oh crap my serpents are popped and not I have nothing but crap 5 man DA"

Why don't people use full squads in their troops choices. I understand just 5 dragons being used, or maybe 10 banshees, but why only 5 DA?

Why don't people use 10 DA with bladestorm, or 10 guardians with a BL? Could you not move 12" and then have the models pop out and fire under the skiimmer? On the next turn they could re-enter the vehicle and take off again. If you are not reserving your entire army, thats an average of 3 turns of shooting per squad, and if the skimmer is destroyed the squad is still useful.

BlueDagger wrote:Also the Autuach really has no role here outside of his +1 reserves which doesn't really justify his points

Why don't you recommend Autuachs? Is the +1 reserve roll really just not worth it? Even a +1 means that 2/3 of your army comes in instead of 1/2. It seems to me that you could put one in a fire dragon serpent. When the serpent drops the dragons, the autuarch disembarks from the squad so it can melta and assault his own target. When attacking AV 13, there is a ~36.58% of destroying, which is better than any other odds I've seen vs AV 13.

Thanks for your input

That's a point about BS3, I can probably drop it out on a couple of the serpents.

The Autuach is really a try it a few times and see if it's for you kinda thing. The big problem is he has no role to fill, getting out a of a tank and banking on a melta shot to one shot a vehicle is not the greatest odds. 36.58% is abysmal for the fact that you are getting out of your vehicle and handing your opponent a kill point on a silver plater. You have 2 packs of Dragons, Singing spear, EMLs, Falcon, Fire Prism to fill that light to heavy armor killing role. At over 2k lists I usually bring one with the banshees, since then he can actually help out with a bunch of additional PW attacks while giving the +1.

Troops - Lets face the fact, Wave Serpents are one if not the best damn thing we have in our Codex. Incredibly hard to kill with a TL heavy weapon and for the investment of 60pts it's now scoring. Bladestorm DA on the other hand is 152pts and once again it comes down to roles. Do you want to keep that scoring unit safe and mobile or do you want to risk the whole squad by piling 10 guys 2" from your rear hatch, closer then 18" to your opponent. 32 shots is nice don't get me wrong, but if you have other anti-infantry then what is the point? Without Doom and Guide you aren't going to kill those marines before they fire back or charge you and if their is FNP present they'll laugh at you. 5 DA saves you 92pts that you can put elsewhere in better killing stuff while keeping that troop safe.

Your heavies will get pounded 24/7 whenever an enemy can get a shot on them. People fear Prisms once they know what they can do and when that Falcon starts firing 3 S8 shots, and realize it's also scoring it'll be right up there too.

Go to kjmagnetics.com and get your mags there, much cheaper and larger variety. I use a little over 32 magnets per wave serpent.

BlueDagger wrote:36.58% is abysmal for the fact that you are getting out of your vehicle and handing your opponent a kill point on a silver plater.

36.58% is not abysmal. Vehicles are hard to kill. To put it into perspective, a serpents TL EML has a 4.2% to destroy that same target. You can use my tool at simhammer.com to determine the percentages of vehicle explosion.
Does it match up to 5 fire dragons firing at a target? No, but then again, almost nothing does. Aspect warriors are incredible buys for what they carry. Compare the cost of a dragon to a IG vet with carapace armor, melta gun, and melta bombs. Now give him higher stats in WS, I, LD. And the dragon is cheaper.

BlueDagger wrote:At over 2k lists I usually bring one with the banshees, since then he can actually help out with a bunch of additional PW attacks while giving the +1.

Thats a good idea. I wish he could carry an executioner or something more useful, but even at STR 3 he can add decent punch to a squad of banshees. In today's world of FNP in everything, the power weapons on the banshees are actually good. They have a 55% to wound T4 on a doomed target, which means its quite possible to kill 7-8 MEQ when charging with them.

BlueDagger wrote:Troops -

Those are very good points you bring up about troops. Given that FNP is now handed out like candy, I agree that DA have been weakened considerably. I noticed you did not comment about the BL guardian squad as an objective holder.

Continuing the role of thinking outisde the cookie-cutter, have you ever thought of using a serpent for a Dark Reaper trasport. Deploy the dark reapers on the table and use the empty serpent as a mobile weapons platform. I have found in other armies that having an extra empty trasnport is handy as it allows for you to pick up a squad that has had its ride destroyed -- allowing you to save a scoring unit.

BlueDagger wrote:Your heavies will get pounded 24/7 whenever an enemy can get a shot on them.

Well, holo-fields to help when getting shots at. A SW ML has a ~2.56% to destroy a holo-fielded target, and a ~7.27% to destroy a non-holo fielded target. Whats even more important is that you can avoid the 'weapon destroyed' result longer as well.

BlueDagger wrote:Go to kjmagnetics.com and get your mags there, much cheaper and larger variety. I use a little over 32 magnets per wave serpent.

Great site. Thanks for the link.

36.58% is not abysmal. Vehicles are hard to kill. To put it into perspective, a serpents TL EML has a 4.2% to destroy that same target. You can use my tool at simhammer.com to determine the percentages of vehicle explosion.
Does it match up to 5 fire dragons firing at a target? No, but then again, almost nothing does. Aspect warriors are incredible buys for what they carry. Compare the cost of a dragon to a IG vet with carapace armor, melta gun, and melta bombs. Now give him higher stats in WS, I, LD. And the dragon is cheaper.

36.58% is abysmal for sticking an 80 point guy out to die. My big question on your EML logic there is... why are you firing at AV13? You have a 12" move, 48" range, and multiple serpents... you should be getting side shots.

Banshees with Doom will typically lay waste to a full Marines squad without much issue. No, suprise there... major issue is getting gunned down afterward.

Dark Reapers are just too overcoasted. If you are going that route take a Falcon, take 5 DA, and then purchase their serpent as the empty. More cost effective.

You math is actually incorrect here, with a Holofield your chances of a Weapon Destroyed actually increase, but a weaponless Prism is better then a dead Prism. Did a writeup on the math and logic there in my blog, that I have let grow dust lol.

BlueDagger wrote:Banshees with Doom will typically lay waste to a full Marines squad without much issue. No, suprise there... major issue is getting gunned down afterward.

Have you ever considered bringing less banshees to ensure that they finish the enemy in the 2nd round of assault -- much for the same reason that Incubi don't go in squads of 10.

BlueDagger wrote:Dark Reapers are just too overcoasted. If you are going that route take a Falcon, take 5 DA, and then purchase their serpent as the empty. More cost effective.

A fine idea. Thanks for suggesting it. I think I'll use that in my list. That also lets me keep a scoring unit near a home objective if required.

BlueDagger wrote:You math is actually incorrect here, with a Holofield your chances of a Weapon Destroyed actually increase, but a weaponless Prism is better then a dead Prism.

So you would take a weapon destroyed result instead of rerolling it? That is what I was driving at. If you rolled a weapon destroyed result you could just force the reroll. When the weapon is destroyed do you just use the prism for ramming and tank shocking?

Thanks again for the ideas, its good to pick your brain.

You have the rule incorrect for holofields. You roll 2D6 and take the lowest, there is no reroll and it's much better then a reroll. When the weapon is blown off it's mobile cover, a very sturdy ram, and an objective contester.

If you bring less banshees then you risk not getting the job done and you know the enemy will get a chance to swing back which means you're dead, T3 4+ armor dies in a strong breeze in or out of CC. It is vastly better to run in, know you'll slaughter the unit, and have the chance to survive.

Ok, one possible update:

1 Farseer, Guide Doom, Stones, RoWarding
1 Autarch, Fusion Gun, Power Weapon

5 Firedragons, Wave Serpent (EML)
5 Firedragons, Wave Serpent (EML)

5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (EML) + Cannon
5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (EML) + Cannon
5 Dire Avengers
6 Jetbikes, 2 Cannons, Warlock Singing Spear, Embolden

1 Falcon, Stones, Holo, EML
1 Fire Prism, Holo
1 Fire Prism, Holo

=1750 exactly


Alternatively, a more different list:

1 Farseer, RoWarding, Guide, Doom, Stones

5 Firedragons, Wave Serpent (EML)
5 Firedragons, Wave Serpent (EML)
8 Banshees, Exarch, Executioner, Acrobat, Wave Serpent (SC)

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, Shimmer, Defend, Wave Serpent (BL)
5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent (EML), Cannon
5 Dire Avengers

1 Falcon, Stones, Holo, EML
1 Fire Prism
1 Fire Prism

= 1747

My my extra Wave Serpent with the Brightlance isn't modular at all (unlike the others) as it's an older Forge World one. Removing the underslung Shuriken Cannons on most was easy, as I'd already done it a while ago and forgot (been a while since I played the army).

Executioner or Mirror Swords? I think the latter is better with Doom when I ran the maths, but will I always have Doom available to me?

I'd say list #1 since it's extremely close to what I run so I feel confident in tell you it'll do well. Only thing to point out is that I'd assuming the Farseer will be in the falcon and you won't have range for doom on everything since the falcon should be staying waaaaay back. Take Fortune or drop the stones and 2nd power and use the point elsewhere.

On list two you are sacrificing the durability of your fire prisms and have two units that need doom to function but only one doom to give out. I can never condone PW/SS DA because while the Exarch model is beautiful, DA are just soooo terrible in CC. Also on list two you should always put your least threat units (5 man DA) with your highest threat weapon (BL).

Executioner is always the way to go, +2S will always trump +1 attack.

On the first one, Doom and the Stones are only there because I couldn't think of what to spend the remaining points on.

Maybe putting S.Stones around would work? (Doom and the stones give me 4, enough for all the Serpents)

The Serpents can easily be swapped though.

Sure I'd go with that, try out the list and playtest it a few times. Pay close attention in your matches (minimum of 3 matches for a decent pool) to the following things:

- How often the Autauch's bonus and attack makes a pivotal difference vs How often he dies and gives up a kill point.
- How often your Prisms persist in being a nuisance even if they get a weapon destroyed or Immobilze.
- How often Spirit Stones benefits you on non-holofield models.

Enjoy your matches

Edit: Your list with Howling Banshees is about 500 billion times better than the first list you posted. If you wana use howling banshees go for it. They CAN be incredible effective, and your a boss for doing so. Anyone who uses howling banshees get a tip of my hat.


you honestly dont need the EML's with fire dragons and would be better suited with scatter lazerz which are OP.

5 Dire Avengers with no transport need to be removed because its an utter waste of points that serves no purpose. Holding an objective with 5 toughness 3 units is dumb.

Take stones and the cannon off your wave serpent. you cant move and shoot the cannon and the EML so its a waste of points. Stones "can" be worth it for fire dragons, but for dire avengers no rofl its not worth it at all.

Falcons should NEVER be used. Some people think there good, and they have negative IQ's. If it were a bs of 4, Mabe. But no falcons have a bs3 which makes them utterly useless. Especially now that the games entirely melta weapons your falcons a huge waste of 180 something points. Replace it with a prism, wriathlord, or firedragon squad.

I like the dragons and the Autarch and the 2 prisms. Everything else is pretty meh.

If your going to run 6 Jetbikes you need doom. If your going to doom you might as well have bladestorm and squads of 10 dire avengers.

I hate dire avengers, there a poor exuse for a unit. Storm guardians are cheaper and better.

To me you havent really played eldar alot. You are 90% on the right track and the list you have is competitive, but your using things that look good on paper, but not things that actually pull their own weight.

Eldar is a bitch to play, so you need to play it like one.

Good luck and my advice woud be to play games with your current list so you can see for yourself how it can be improved.

But yea the Falcon and guide support really imo isnt worth it, and if you play test it you will see.

1) your falcon and 5 dire avengers doing nothing

2) your prisms doing decent but getting meltad and destoryed before turn 4

3) your fire dragons will be your favorite unit ever.

4) your jetbikes will be good for objectives, bad for everything else.

5) your farseer needs doom for infantry support.

Wow...

Watch the language, it'll get you temp banned fast.

I'd take a grain of salt from someone pushing the advice of " scatter lazerz which are OP", "5 Dire Avengers with no transport", "Falcons should NEVER be used", "your jetbikes will be good for objectives, bad for everything else.", and "your farseer needs doom for infantry support".

It's advice like this that leads people to believe Eldar are bottom tier.

BlueDagger wrote:

Watch the language, it'll get you temp banned fast..

yes please. I'm sure you're keen to get your point across but please do so in a less rude and confrontational manner. ta.

I played a similar list at an 1850 tourney last year. Drop the holofields, they were rarely needed in my case. 5 games (3 heavys each game) I lost 5 heavys out of the 5 games. They sat at long range and shot away, while they rest of my list was aggressive and in the opponents face. Not to say that they wernt immob. and weapons lost but points were at a premium. And if they shot at them, it was one less shot at my WS's.

I've thought of a use for the Singing Spear (only if there are 3 points spare though, don't sacrifice anything for it).

A Farseer in the DAVU Falcon in a scoring mission near the end of the game won't help the Falcon/DA score. If an enemy sends a tank or something similar up to it at that time to contest, he can leave on his own and gives 1 extra BS5 S9 shot at it.

May not be much, but it's 3 spare points that has a small chance of shifting an objective.

The best way to play that scenario though is you are over 12" away from your objective so you are full outing back to it to gain your 4+ cover. It also throws your opponent off sometimes thinking you are too far away to get back to the objective.

Can't get out if you are full outing either before or after the tank moves. The reason I suggested against it because if you model it, your are stuck with it WYSIWYG. If you are playing tourneys though then not a big deal.

BlueDagger wrote:The reason I suggested against it because if you model it, your are stuck with it WYSIWYG. If you are playing tourneys though then not a big deal.

I cannot emphasize this enough. One of the first things I did when I started playing Eldar was to convert a singing spear onto my Farseer. Its a decision that I still regret to this day! Considering the squads I put my farseer in (Dire Avengers, Banshees, or 3 flamer storm guardians) I never get a chance to throw that spear because the squad the farseer is with almost always goes after infantry. The singing spear actually lowers the number of attacks the Farseer gets in close combat.

The only time I strongly advocate singing spears is on jetbike models. A Farseer with a singing spear on a jetbike, is a good idea. It takes full advantage of the bs5, and whether you are with a council or a GJB squad its not a bad option.

That said, don't take too many spears on a council as they are a close combat model first and foremost. Generally I'd take a spear on the farseer, and 1 or 2 on the warlocks and thats it.

You just won't use a singing spear enough to justify its points cost on a foot farseer, and there are times when you'll actually wish you didn't have it!

I'm probably going to buy a new farseer- one without the singing spear. Just so I don't need to deal with it.