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Can normal Terminators compete with GK Termies? It seems like the GK termies have a lot of shiny toys that leave them far outstripping their normal SM termie counterparts. In a squad on squad challenge, who would win?

TH/SS Marines can make GK Termies go splat, taking relatively few return wounds in the process thanks to Storm Shields.

Though GK Termies can get a 2++ save, this is only on 1 guy, so its usefulness will be limit.

Of course, you can't compare their effectiveness solely based on CC, as the GK Termies have substantially greater shooting capability (i.e., Psycannon vs... nothing).

GKTs, however, suffer from a lack of transport options, whereas Assault Terminators can take a LR dedicated transport. This gives the Assault Terminators greater potential to negate GKT shooting, although if we factor in the points for a Land Raider, we can also include a Libby w/ Might of Titan, or a Vindicare Assassin to pop the Land Raider.

In the end, it comes down to this: it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to compare these 2 units from different armies in a vacuum. Assault Terminators are better in *GASP* assaults, and GKTs are more versatile, balancing good, if short ranged, shooting with respectable close combat skill.

I AGREE

A Vindicare would make the fight completely one-sided, as for about half the points of a Land Raider you get something that can Permanently Negate an invul save, pen on 4D6 and a whole bunch of other shenanigans. Stormshield Terminators can kiss their 3++ goodbye, as well as their pimped ride.

Fluff wise, GK Ageis armor is more advanced then normal Terminator Armor, however much of that advancement is targeted towards a very specific threat. So I would say that while Ageis armor is more advnaced, normal terminator armor is just as effective in the grand scheme of things.

It depends on if the Psycannon has rending, I don't know how long. If it does then the Psycannon would help a fair bit against normal marines.

obsidianaura wrote:It depends on if the Psycannon has rending, I don't know how long. If it does then the Psycannon would help a fair bit against normal marines.

Psycannons are rending. Think of them as assault cannons with +1S.

its assault 2 or heavy 4... rending its str is the same and an autocannon and its bleeding expensive


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while were on this subject, the GK termie boxset being the same price as the normal ones... i somehow feel stupid if i buy the normal ones now, mainly due to the ammount of bits you get

Formosa wrote:its assault 2 or heavy 4... rending its str is the same and an autocannon and its bleeding expensive


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while were on this subject, the GK termie boxset being the same price as the normal ones... i somehow feel stupid if i buy the normal ones now, mainly due to the ammount of bits you get

Except you don't get cyclone missile launchers from anywhere else than the normal terminator boxset. Or things with non-GK heraldry. Or assault cannons, unless you want the old metal ones.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:A Vindicare would make the fight completely one-sided, as for about half the points of a Land Raider you get something that can Permanently Negate an invul save, pen on 4D6 and a whole bunch of other shenanigans. Stormshield Terminators can kiss their 3++ goodbye, as well as their pimped ride.

Apples to oranges- OP didn't ask about support units or start "this unit beats that". By that logic, an outflanking Baal with Flamestorm or assault marines with flamers, etc. eats the Vindicare.

I love my vaniila assault termies,but in terms of combat i am split between the two.With a 4++ from the Nemesis Sword and going first,you could kill 2 or maybe even 3 TH/SS and thereby have something left after the Hammers swing.Transport and shooting would have a lot do with the overall squad v squad tangle as has been mentioned.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Formosa wrote:its assault 2 or heavy 4... rending its str is the same and an autocannon and its bleeding expensive


Automatically Appended Next Post:
while were on this subject, the GK termie boxset being the same price as the normal ones... i somehow feel stupid if i buy the normal ones now, mainly due to the ammount of bits you get

Except you don't get cyclone missile launchers from anywhere else than the normal terminator boxset. Or things with non-GK heraldry. Or assault cannons, unless you want the old metal ones.

this is true, but im happy to order them from the bitzbox thingy website. as a deathwing player i have had to this pretty much anyway, like buying shooty termies just so i can get the assault cannon or cyclone £27.70 for 2 bits.. bit much (lol)

One on one, starting at any range, the GK termies shoot away the ASsault terminators, as they can get 2 - 3 turns of shooting in before the assault termies close range (run roll dependent)

In the more likely 1 turn to shoot, at best, then its a lot closer. 4++ striking first at S5 (assuming HH goes off) with a banner in the unit (making them 25% more expensive) gives you, with neither side charging, A3 per termie.

Shooting:
SB: 8x2/3x1/2*1/6 = 8/36 of a dead terminator. Spending 20 (!) points to get S5 stormbolters gives you 16/27 of a dead termi

Psycannon: (4x2/3x2/3x1/6) + (4x2/3x1/6x1/3) = 12/27 of a dead terminator. In otherwords you have average odds to kill 1 in total.

Assault
So: 12x1/2x2/3x1/3 = 1 1/3 dead TH/SS termie on average. (discounting the A3 from the non-power weapon termi)

Hitting back they have 3 terminators left with A2 each, so
6x1/2x5/6x1/2 = 1 1/4 dead GK. Combat is a draw, just about

It then slugs that way until both sides are essentially ruined.

If you stick a warding stave it (for obscene points) you save that first wound so win by 1. Big deal, termies stay, fight continues

If you can get a vindicaire to pop a stormshield as well, that also helps.

I understand that a vacuum squad v. squad scenario is never going to happen. Perhaps I should have phrased this differently. In terms of overall effectiveness on the field, would a GK termy build (with typical support) far outshine a regular termy squad (with typical support) of similar point value. Here I am trying to take into account typical builds of each type (i.e. putting terms in a LR).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So: 12x1/2x2/3x1/3 = 1 1/3 dead TH/SS termie on average. (discounting the A3 from the non-power weapon termi)

Wait, so termies with psycannon don't get NFWs? o,0

They did in the old book and Id have to believe they do in the new book as well. You replace your storm bolter with a psycannon, incinerator or now psilancer(Spelling?). You can also replace standard sword with halberd for free, falchions, deamonhammer or warding stave.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Wait, so termies with psycannon don't get NFWs? o,0

I believe he was referring to the dude with the Brotherhood Banner, as to take it, you must swap out your Nemesis weapon.... And it's 25 points... meaning it will rarely, if ever, be taken.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So: 12x1/2x2/3x1/3 = 1 1/3 dead TH/SS termie on average. (discounting the A3 from the non-power weapon termi)

Wait, so termies with psycannon don't get NFWs? o,0

no he is talking about the termy holding the banner. he doesn't get a NFW. you still are allowed to have a psycannon and a NFW

I think the banner is awesome. Sure, the guy holding it loses an attack but all the others in the squad gain an additional one which means, overall, you get more attacks if you take one. And it guarantees your psychic power will work.

I would always take one.

Also, like many upgrades, the banner favors larger squads. In a 10 man squad, its nearly mandatory (though, you end up either having to DS a 10 man squad of 40mm bases, or you footslog them). If you were to say load up a Crusader, it would still certainly be worth it, as you get 5 extra force weapon attacks and 3 regular attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:One on one, starting at any range, the GK termies shoot away the ASsault terminators, as they can get 2 - 3 turns of shooting in before the assault termies close range (run roll dependent)

In the more likely 1 turn to shoot, at best, then its a lot closer. 4++ striking first at S5 (assuming HH goes off) with a banner in the unit (making them 25% more expensive) gives you, with neither side charging, A3 per termie.

Shooting:
SB: 8x2/3x1/2*1/6 = 8/36 of a dead terminator. Spending 20 (!) points to get S5 stormbolters gives you 16/27 of a dead termi

Psycannon: (4x2/3x2/3x1/6) + (4x2/3x1/6x1/3) = 12/27 of a dead terminator. In otherwords you have average odds to kill 1 in total.

Assault
So: 12x1/2x2/3x1/3 = 1 1/3 dead TH/SS termie on average. (discounting the A3 from the non-power weapon termi)

Hitting back they have 3 terminators left with A2 each, so
6x1/2x5/6x1/2 = 1 1/4 dead GK. Combat is a draw, just about

It then slugs that way until both sides are essentially ruined.

If you stick a warding stave it (for obscene points) you save that first wound so win by 1. Big deal, termies stay, fight continues

If you can get a vindicaire to pop a stormshield as well, that also helps.

Sound theory. But this is not occuring in a vacuum.

It seems all the fuss is due to noone considering the greater scheme of things.

Its a new codex. Yes.

Gamers have not had time to adjust, due to lack of experience. Yes.

It's unbeatable. No. We have seen this happen with 'Nids; IG; SW; BA... any I missed?

On Topic: Yes, GK are superior, the rules reflect the fluff possibly as accurately as GW could represent in a game played with dice and simplified enough for the average school child. However, as time goes by, the units you now consider undercosted/overpowered will be dealt with through experience. Just let it wash over you and do not panic. There is always a method to crack even the toughest nut.

jmurph wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:A Vindicare would make the fight completely one-sided, as for about half the points of a Land Raider you get something that can Permanently Negate an invul save, pen on 4D6 and a whole bunch of other shenanigans. Stormshield Terminators can kiss their 3++ goodbye, as well as their pimped ride.

Apples to oranges- OP didn't ask about support units or start "this unit beats that". By that logic, an outflanking Baal with Flamestorm or assault marines with flamers, etc. eats the Vindicare.

I was adding onto what shealyr said, as he mentioned the Vindicare. However against Assault Terminators alone, GKs can just backtrack and shoot the crap out of them with their storm bolters (Death by a thousand cuts, but still death without having to dirty their hands). Against normal Termies, GKs can just rush in and kill them with superior initiative and saves (this is going by a barebones squad).