Where did the Dark Angels come from?

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**snake**

As in, what is the source of their fluff? For example, Ultramarines are heavily influenced by greek/romans, Space Wolves have viking/nordic influence. I can't identify the source of Dark Angels fluff. Any insights?

**pretre**

DA are very knightly nowadays. There is some good background in the HH novels re: DA History.

Originally, Dark Angels were based on Native American influences. Earlier fluff had them recruiting after the fall of Caliban from a 'Plains world' with recruits being very similar to Native Americans. This still may be true and the two ideas are not contrary.

Knightly roots.
New blood is 'Native'.

Leads to an interesting mixture of two types of cultures.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a good spot for 'factual roots'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Angels_(Warhammer_40,000)#Loyalist_Legions

**puma713**

Hmm, Belial and Azrael are both names of demons. Ezekiel is obviously biblical.

I'd lean toward Catholic influences. I don't think you can nail it to Babylonian, Palestinian, Greek, or Italian (specifically). You may laugh, but look at all the fire and brimstone surrounding the Dark Angels - it reminds me of the grim darkness of Catholicism.

Edit: Also, Adonai, which is a Hebrew name for God, was the name of a Deathwing terminator in the Space Hulk game.

**Conservationist**

I feel the Dark Angels are influenced by the secretive orders of the world which keep thier practices underwraps. I think something along the lines of freemasons, both known and yet unknown.

**Kanluwen**

pretre wrote:DA are very knightly nowadays. There is some good background in the HH novels re: DA History.

They've always been fairly knightly/monastic.

Originally, Dark Angels were based on Native American influences. Earlier fluff had them recruiting after the fall of Caliban from a 'Plains world' with recruits being very similar to Native Americans. This still may be true and the two ideas are not contrary.

Er, no. That was one planet they recruited from, they weren't "based on Native American influences".

What's more interesting is that now it seems that the entire story is seemingly an allegorical retelling of the "Fall of Caliban" told to new recruits, with the details altering the more involved into the Chapter's Mysteries the recruit becomes.

**pretre**

puma713 wrote:Hmm, Belial and Azrael are both names of demons. Ezekiel is obviously biblical.

I'd lean toward Catholic influences. I don't think you can nail it to Babylonian, Palestinian, Greek, or Italian (specifically). You may laugh, but look at all the fire and brimstone surrounding the Dark Angels - it reminds me of the grim darkness of Catholicism.

Edit: Also, Adonia was the name of a Deathwing terminator in the Space Hulk game. Which is a Hebrew name for God.

I thought the Ecclesiarchy was Catholicism.

Belial is a _fallen_ angel.

Azrael is a normal angel, albeit the Angel of Death. Most of the names for DA are angelic names or made to sound like them. (-iel, -ial, etc.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Er, no. That was one planet they recruited from, they weren't "based on Native American influences".

Deathwing short story disagrees. At the time, it showed that DA were Native influenced because of recruitment (hence all the weird feathers and such on DW and other DA models).

I do like the allegory retcon though. That makes sense to me and would explain the shift away.

**puma713**

pretre wrote:
puma713 wrote:Hmm, Belial and Azrael are both names of demons. Ezekiel is obviously biblical.

I'd lean toward Catholic influences. I don't think you can nail it to Babylonian, Palestinian, Greek, or Italian (specifically). You may laugh, but look at all the fire and brimstone surrounding the Dark Angels - it reminds me of the grim darkness of Catholicism.

Edit: Also, Adonia was the name of a Deathwing terminator in the Space Hulk game. Which is a Hebrew name for God.

I thought the Ecclesiarchy was Catholicism.

Hmm, could be.

pretre wrote:Belial is a _fallen_ angel. Azrael is a normal angel, albeit the Angel of Death.

Hmm, not sure about that:

Belial (also Be'lial, Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Belias , Beliall, Beliel, Bilael, Belu; from Hebrew בְּלִיַּ֫עַל Bəliyyáʻal; also named Matanbuchus, Mechembuchus, Meterbuchus in older scripts) is one of the four crown princes of Hell and a demon in the Bible, Jewish apocrypha and Christian apocrypha. It is also a term used to characterize or embody immense wickedness or iniquity.

Also:

Catholic Encylopedia wrote:Found frequently as a personal name in the Vulgate and various English translations of the Bible, is commonly used as a synonym of Satan, or the personification of evil.

This sense is derived from 2 Corinthians 6:15, where Belial (or Beliar) as prince of darkness is contrasted with Christ, the light. It is clear in the Vulgate and Douay translations of 1 Kings 21:10 and 13, where the same Hebrew is rendered once as Belial and twice as "the devil".

In the other instances, too, the translators understood it as a name for the prince of evil, and so it has passed into English. Milton, however, distinguishes Belial from Satan, regarding him as the demon of impurity. In the Hebrew Bible, nevertheless, the word is not a proper name, but a common noun usually signifying "wickedness" or "extreme wickedness". Thus, Moore renders "sons of Belial" as "vile scoundrels" (Judges 19:22); most prefer "worthless fellows".

In some cases belial seems to mean "destruction", "ruin"; thus in Psalm 12:9, the word is parallel to the thought of utter destruction and seems to mean the same. In Psalm 18:5, it is parallel to "death" and "Sheol"; some understand it as "destruction", Cheyne as "the abyss".

The etymology of the word is doubtful; it is usually taken to be a compound meaning "worthlessness." Cheyne suggest an alternate that means "that from which no one comes up", namely the abyss, Sheol. St. Jerome's etymology "without yoke", which he has even inserted as a gloss in the text of Judges 19:22, is contrary to Hebrew philology.

Belial, from meaning wickedness or Sheol, could develop into a name for the prince of evil or of darkness; and as such was widely used at the beginning of our era. Under the names Beliar, Berial, he plays a very important rôle in apocryphal literature, in the "Ascension of Isaias", the "Sibylline Oracles", and the "Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs". He is the prince of this world and will come as Antichrist; his name is sometimes given also to Nero, returning as Antichrist.

And, in Roman Catholicism (which was what I was suggesting), it was Michael and Sammael (another DA name) that characterized the angels of death, I believe, not Azrael. Also, in Judaism, Azrael is seen as sort of a personification of evil.

**Kanluwen**

"Deathwing" short story is also older than most posters here.

There's a reason it hasn't been republished.

**pretre**

puma713 wrote:
Hmm, not sure about that:

Belial (also Be'lial, Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Belias , Beliall, Beliel, Bilael, Belu; from Hebrew בְּלִיַּ֫עַל Bəliyyáʻal; also named Matanbuchus, Mechembuchus, Meterbuchus in older scripts) is one of the four crown princes of Hell and a demon in the Bible, Jewish apocrypha and Christian apocrypha. It is also a term used to characterize or embody immense wickedness or iniquity.

Dead Sea Scrolls list him as an Angel of Hostility and other works (extra-biblical and questioned authenticity) list him as an Angel of Lawlessness. Either way, he ended up as a bad dude and has a -ial name.

And, in Roman Catholicism (which was what I was suggesting), it was Michael and Sammael (another DA name) that characterized the angels of death, I believe, not Azrael. Also, in Judaism, Azrael is seen as sort of a personification of evil.

Islam has Azrael as an Angel of Death.

I think they cherry-picked from multiple traditions to get enough angel cool-sounding names.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:"Deathwing" short story is also older than most posters here.

There's a reason it hasn't been republished.

Heh. Weren't you taking the opposite stance and such when we were talking about Jokaero evolving?

**puma713**

pretre wrote:
I think they cherry-picked from multiple traditions to get enough angel cool-sounding names.

Yeah, maybe I'm reading too much into it. However, it all seems very secretive, dark and foreboding. It reminds me of Catholicism. Then, throw in Angel/Demon names that have traditions in that religion and it makes it all come together. . .

. . .in my head.

**Kanluwen**

Heh. Weren't you taking the opposite stance and such when we were talking about Jokaero evolving?

No, because no matter what it's the Grey Knights book--and Jokaero, Hereticus, and Xenos Inquisitors do not belong within it.

Jokaero, also, have not 'evolved'. They're the same as they were.

**Grey Templar**

I would say the DA are a mix of Illuminati and Knights Templar.

the whole secrets thing.

**puma713**

And they have kids!:

Gotta be Catholic.

**pretre**

Kanluwen wrote:

Heh. Weren't you taking the opposite stance and such when we were talking about Jokaero evolving?

No, because no matter what it's the Grey Knights book--and Jokaero, Hereticus, and Xenos Inquisitors do not belong within it.

Jokaero, also, have not 'evolved'. They're the same as they were.

::smiles and nods::

**Kanluwen**

pretre wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Heh. Weren't you taking the opposite stance and such when we were talking about Jokaero evolving?

No, because no matter what it's the Grey Knights book--and Jokaero, Hereticus, and Xenos Inquisitors do not belong within it.

Jokaero, also, have not 'evolved'. They're the same as they were.

::smiles and nods::

Try to be condescending(but remain wrong) all you want.

The "Deathwing" short story has been mentioned in a few places now as being an 'allegory' that the Dark Angels themselves tell their trainees to show the importance of loyalty. As the trainees are entrusted with more and more of the Chapter's secrets, the story changes--finally revealing that it's, in fact, a retelling of the Fall.

And since you seem so insistent to drag things off topic:
I never really said anything about the Jokaero's "evolution" when they were first discussed. I just said they do not fit within the book they're in. Neither do the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, the Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, or the Radical Ordo Malleus Inquisitors.

This is, as the title should make clear "Codex: Grey Knights". Not "Codex: Whatever the hell Inquisition presence we can cram within".

**puma713**

Kanluwen wrote: Not "Codex: Whatever the hell Inquisition presence we can cram within".

Codex: Mat Ward 40K Fruit Salad

**pretre**

Kanluwen wrote:Try to be condescending(but remain wrong) all you want.

I was trying to get you to not go off on another tear.

I'll let this one go so as not to drag us further off, but check your post history, you might be surprised.

**ArbitorIan**

puma713 wrote: I'd lean toward Catholic influences. I don't think you can nail it to Babylonian, Palestinian, Greek, or Italian (specifically). You may laugh, but look at all the fire and brimstone surrounding the Dark Angels - it reminds me of the grim darkness of Catholicism.

I agree, but it's probably more specific.

As well as a Monastic Middle Ages/Knightly theme (as opposed to the Black Templars, who are much more Crusader Knightly theme), they also have a surprising amount of Inquisition ideas mixed in there.

An order concerned with getting heretics to 'repent their sins' through torture... it's much more Middle-Ages-Inquisition than the Ordos are!

**Kroothawk**

There are several organisations inspired by the Catholic church, but in different ways:
Ecclesiarchy -> general church organisation
Inquisition -> Inquisition
Sororitas -> nuns and Jeanne d'Arc
Black Templars -> crusaders
Dark Angels -> secretive monk/church organisations hiding a dark secret

And yes, early Death Wing Terminator sculpts had Native American design supported by background. Not sure if it was completely written out with only some feathers remaining

**Formosa**

The old (metal) Models were inspired by native american culture, this was either to tie in with the short story or the short story was written due to the style of the models, i cant quite remember.

now however they are alot more monastic knights, and alot less native american (some of the new models do have the influence). thing is, due to the DA habit of recruiting from anywhere they see fit, you can use any space marine models you want to represent them, and you can still call them DA (though useing SW parts would be a bit odd, they could still work)

**DarknessEternal**

King Arthur.

Arthur (Lion) was betrayed by his most trusted ally Lancelot or son Mordred (Luther in either case). He was killed and then carried away by angels (Watchers) to Avalon (the Rock) until such a time as he's needed.

**purplefood**

The primarch was named after Lionel Jonson (A n English poet) he was gay and also very Catholic and wrote a poem called Dark Angel which has been attributed to hs struggle with his sexuality and his religion.
The names probably come from christianity for that reason...
Iconography is a touch more difficult but i'd say a mix of native american (Deathwing and maybe Ravenwing) and Arthurian/Knights Templar for that...

**Kid_Kyoto**

Their fluff is all over the place, GW never seems to know what they're going to do with them.

RT-Grimest of the grim, black armor, black banners.
SH-Native Americans chafing under the Imperial system they've converted to, all of them have two names an Imperial latin one and a Native American sounding one (Two-Heads-Talking, their librarian).
2nd edition - Robes, knights, dark secret, borderline heretics
3rd edition - I stopped caring.

I think the Illuminati/Free Masons is the best idea you'll find. They're the guys who are always skulking in the shadows, hiding things, doing mysterious stuff.