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Points for points, I still say Ork boyz.

T4, furious charge, mob rule. Make em slugga boyz and get 4 attacks on the charge, make em shootaz and get an assault 2 gun and destroy the enemy with sheer weight of dice, no matter your puny BS of 2.

All for 6 points.

Couple this with the utility provided by putting a nob with PK&BP in there...

I reckon, points for value, that's the best infantry in the game.

What say you?

Imperial Guard veterans are up there for their ability to tackle ANY unit.

This is obviously working in conjuction with the rest of the army, rather than fighting ork boyz in a vacuum, as ork boyz will win They can take 3 x flamers and eat hordes alive, 3 x plasma and take a assload of wounds of a trygon or kill a bunch of terminators, or 3x melta to ensure that land raider dies, all for a very humble price.

Other than that, Purifiers with Castellan Russel Crowe (pun intended) as HQ 2 attacks base, Possibility for 4 attacks base with falchions, possibility for str 10 thunder hammers, force weapons, storm bolters, all that jazz, for around 30 ppm after upgrades! Lets not even mention the 4x psycannons

I've always had a soft spot for the Ladz. Cheap, cheerful, and capable of laying out a metric butt-tonne of attacks on the charge. Sure, they've only got a 6+ armour save, but there's plenty more orks where they came from.

It's hard to beat orks.

Grey hunters and chaos space marines are way up there as well.

Sisters aren't bad either.

Imperial Guard platoon of course...What other troop choice could hold 6 objectives at once

Da orkses.

At 6 pts a model, 4 attacks on the charge, T4, and the ability to field 180 of them for a little over a thousand points, I would say that they are the best.

Sure, they don't have an armor save. That's why there is 30 of them!

Hmm...That's a real good question.
I've always liked Dire avengers. 10 of them with Exarch, couple shuriken catapults and blade storm, and they can definitely hold their own.

Grey Hunters for nearly every case of marine really
both CCW and shooty ability, same price as the tac squad

One on One Tyranid warrior would be champ (without care of point case)
4+ save with 3 wound, with the ability to take instant death power weapon , GK would be up there too, with their Termi troop choice

Definitely Ork Boyz. Both as a single model ans as a unit, they're really solid for 6 points, especially in 5th ed where cover is so plentiful. 30 Orks boyz with 4+ cover are inordinately difficult to displace.

My other favorite is grey wolves. They're tactical marines++. For the same cost as a tac marine they have an extra attack for 2 ccws and counter-attack. As a unit, they also get fantastic upgrade options like mark of the wulfen and wolf banner which take them from being good in CC to great in CC, and can have a leader with a host of customizability options which also lets them get a second special ccw in the squad.

Chowderhead wrote:Da orkses.

180 of them for a little over a thousand points

Millionaire's army

Point for point, definitely da Boyz. Dirt cheap and pretty good in assault - and survivable thanks to KFF/Cover everywhere.

Point for point, orks can't be beaten.\

Termagants too if a tervagon is behind them, but that is stretching the question.

karlosovic wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Da orkses.

180 of them for a little over a thousand points

Millionaire's army

lol? I bought 240 boyz online for 140 bucks.

My vote goes for the Boyz, as stated many times already.

Boyz or Dire Avengers, for reasons already give.

DAs only in the situation that they have bladestorm though. Oh god, bladestorm.

+1 for the lowly Ork boy, although consider how highly praised the ork boy is and how lowly viewed the firewarrior is. Now deploy your two ork boys (12 points) vs. 1 firewarrior (12 points). The firewarrior will likely shoot the ork boys off of the table before they ever get across.

My point is that it's hard to judge any unit strictly on a point for point basis without considering how they synergise with the rest of the army or how they are used by any given player.

The cheap ork boy really earns his title as best valued troop choice by giving ablative wounds to PK toting nobs and being in large mobs with insane Ld. due to mob rule.

That, and his stats are really awesome for the points you pay. S3 Furious charge with 4 attacks on the charge and a single pistol round, or with an Assault 2 S4 weapon and 3 attacks on the charge, all for only 6 points is nothing to sneeze at.

I agree that orks are definitely good for by-model troops choices.

The only serious contender in my mind is a chaos space marine. Unlike an ork boy, these guys are CRAZY flexible, especially if you include the actual god-soldiers in this. Need to field terminators with AP3 bolters as troops? Got it. Need to field slugga boyz as troope? No problem.

Yes, CSM troopers are way more expensive, but you do actually get what you pay for. Ork boyz are nice, but they're only really nice at one thing. In the case of sluggas, for example, it's charging, but once the charge is over (Mork protect you if your opponent got it instead of you), then they're just S3, I2 Sv6+ goobers. CSM always have power armor, and always have 4's or better across their stat line, which means they actually have staying power in assault, and aren't horribly mowed down by things like flamers.

I mean, you do the math of 3 sluggas v. a single khorne berzerker, and even if the sluggas get the charge in, there's a pretty decent chance that the berzerker will still win. Turn it around with the berzerker getting the charge, and the boyz are likely to just get stomped.

30 Ork shoota boyz, three big shootas, and a PK/BP nob is probably the best basic troops choice in the game for sheer survivability, damage output, and utility. Grey Hunters are also incredibly good.

Once I was seriously considering a 'themed' ork army for fun rather than pure competetiveness.

"The 300 Orks" (based off of the movie/historic battle)

Quite tough to fit that many orks in though. The FOC is as much of a hindrance as points are. I cannot remember if I was actually able to do it. When I get home after work I'll have to look and see if you can fit 300 bodies into 2000pts. I dont think you can do it if you only have 1850, not w/o using Gretchin...which I didnt want to do.

My vote goes to either Grey Hunters, Ork Boyz, or IG Veterans. They all excell at different things, but they all do those things amazingly well.

Deadshane1 wrote:Once I was seriously considering a 'themed' ork army for fun rather than pure competetiveness.

"The 300 Orks" (based off of the movie/historic battle)

Quite tough to fit that many orks in though. The FOC is as much of a hindrance as points are. I cannot remember if I was actually able to do it. When I get home after work I'll have to look and see if you can fit 300 bodies into 2000pts. I dont think you can do it if you only have 1850, not w/o using Gretchin...which I didnt want to do.

HQ
Big Mek (Kustom Force Field) - 85

Elites
15*Lootas - 225

15*Lootas - 225

15*Lootas - 225

Troops
30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

30*Ork Shoota Boyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 220

Fast Attack
20*Stormboyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 270

20*Stormboyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 270

20*Stormboyz (Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole) - 270

I'm at 286 bodies and 2890 points so far. All of the FOC slots except for heavy support are full. You'd need to use flashgitz for the last 14 bodies (or 13 if you take one more HQ choice), but it'll put you well above 3000 if you do.

What if you drop the gear? If not then...the Nobs. Being a themed army, you simply want to be the only guy crazy enough to have 300 Ork Hoplites on the board!

You probably could if you did that. Not something you'd ever run at a tournament, but it would work.

300 men is perfectly possible with Guard.

CCS: 50 (5men)
PCS: 30 (5men) x6 = 180 (30 men)
Infantry squad: 50 (10 men) x5x6 = 1500 (300)
So now we have 335 men costing 1730 points, not counting upgrades. Depending on how you go about it you should be able to get a reasonable assortment in at 2500 points. You'd end up pretty sparse if you tried to cram it all into 2000, though it is obviously doable.

Back to the original topic, Imperial Guardsmen are nothing special by themselves but some interesting things can happen in groups.

But it's not nearly as awesome as the 300 Orkz.

Inquisitorial Henchmen Squad (w/ Coteaz of course)

I can't think of many other with this much customisation.

For the non-MEQ I have to vote for Ork Boyz as well. Even when I know that I have prepared for the Horde ( pie plates, flamers etc. ),
it is really difficult to silence that small, primitive and irrational part of your psyche. The one that whispers "there are too many of them,
they just keep coming and coming and then they will kill you".

Orks are very good.

Grey Hunters are also. 2 CCWs, counter-attack, night fighting and they're cheaper than a regular Space Marine, so they're clearly better there. KNF makes them better than CSM who have similar weapon load out.

bucheonman wrote:Point for point, orks can't be beaten.

Let us put this to test!

Math Hammer Fight time! Orks V. Grey Hunters.

ORKS: 20 slugga Boys, Nob w/ PK and Boss Pole 160 Pts. This is a common Ork Mod Build, the kind that rides in a BW

GREY HUNTERS: 10 Grey Hunters, Wolf Standard. 160 pts. Imagine that these are 10 Grey hunters in a Rhino (it is not a common build, but it is the same cost as the ork boys.


To give an advantage to the Ork Boys, we will assume that the Orks are Waagh-ing and Charging into the Grey Hunters at full Strength. (imagine them hopping out of a Battle Wagon)
We will also Assume that the Grey hunters will make their LD roll for Counter Attack. (about a a 73% chance, most of the time)

Here we go!

Combat Round 1

10 Grey Hunters make 30 Attacks
15 Hits; 5 ones re-rolled for 2.5 more hits, 17.5 hits.
8.75 wounds; 2.91 ones re-rolled for 1.46 more wounds, 10.21 wounds
Orks take saves and lose 8.51 Boys.

10.49 boys attack back with 41.96 Attacks
20.98 hits
10.49 Wounds
1.75 Grey hunters fail saves, 1.75 re-roll failed saves killing another .58
total Lost 2.33

1 Nob Attacks with 4 PK attacks
2 hits
1.67 dead Grey Hunters.

Combat Results
8.51 Boys dead, 4 Grey hunters Dead.
Orks Lose Combat by 4.51, and take fearless saves. Losing another 3.77 boys.

12.28 Orks dead total (73.68 pts of Orks lost)
4 Grey hunters Dead (60 pts of Grey Hunters Lost)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Combat Round 2

6 Grey Hunters make 12 Attacks
6 hits
3 wounds
2.5 Orks dead

6.72 Orks make 20.16 Attacks
10.08 Hits
3.36 Wounds
1.12 Grey Hunters Dead

1 Nob makes 3 PF attacks
1.25 Grey Hunters Dead.

Combat Results
2.5 Orks Dead, to 2.37 Grey Hunters Dead. The Orks Lose Combat.
The Orks use the boss pole to pass LD and stay in combat, losing another .66 orks


6.37 Grey Hunters Dead
15.44 Orks Dead.

---------------------------------------------

Combat Round 3

3.63 Grey Hunters make 7.26 Attacks
3.63 hits
1.82 wounds
1.51 Dead Orks

2.05 Orks make 8.2 attacks
4.1 Hits
1.36 Wounds
.45 Dead Grey Hunters

1 Nob makes 3 PF attacks
1.25 Grey Hunters Dead.

Combat Results
1.51 dead Orks to 1.7 Dead Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters lose Combat and will make a LD 7 test to stay in combat.

At this point the math starts to break down, but Even if the Grey Hunters stay in combat, they will probably lose combat even more on the next turn, and break then.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusions

What conclusions can we draw from this huge pile of math above? (if it is too long, just look at the combat results for each round).

1) The Grey hunters will die after about 3-4 rounds of combat, and the Orks will be reduced to about 2 Boys with the Nob. That is very close to a tie, and there is a chance (given good rolls for the Grey hunters) that the Grey Hunters will win this combat and make the Orks break. (especially if the orks fail LD at the end of Round 2)

2) There are several imbalances in looking at this scenario. First, the Boys have a much more Expensive Transport, (The BW about 120 pts compared to a 35 pt. rhino). Also, it is very common to find one member of a Grey Hunter Squad to be upgraded with MotW and they always take some kind of special weapon (free for a 10 man squad). I was trying to test two squads that were equal in points.

3) Ork Slugga Boys are generally considered to be Very Dominant in the close combat phase, but do not have much of any real shooting ability. Grey Hunters (especially wil 2x melta guns) are considered to be a versatile squad, that can deal damage in both the Shooting and Movement phases. In this case, we gave the Ork boys the Advantage of being at full strength and ignoring the increased Shooting Power of the Grey Hunters.



To sum it up, Ork Slugga boys are not as point efficient as Grey Hunters as they are only a little bit better in close combat (only just winning even when charging at full strength), BUT the Ork slugga Boys do not win in a shooting match with the Grey Hunters.

How bout if you pit both against a Furioso Dreadnought? Or a Soul Grinder? Or a Wraithlord?

Then there's the flip side of the coin. What if they had to face a horde of Hormagaunts? Termagants buffed by a Tervigon? Chaos Daemons? etc....

10 Wolves with a Wolf standard seems more or less like a counter (not a hard one) against a mob of orks, while the Ork build is, literally, their All comer's build.

I would say that 10x Grey Hunters with 2x Melta, MotW, and Wolf Standard + Rhino is a all comers build for the Space Wolves, but I was trying to test two units that cost exactly the same.
The rhino build is not as common as the 5x Grey hunters 1x WGPL + MotW, Standard, PF, Melta+Combi in a Razorback.


I would rather take 2x melta Shots at a Furioso/Titan that try to fight it in combat with anything.


I know that what I did was not a full comparison, but in every incarnation of the "best troops in the Game" thread Orks ALWAYS come up. If their troops are really so good, then why are they not the most competitive army?

Orks have one glaring weakness, and that is anything with a lot of attacks at a Higher INT value than them. If Slugga boys can not kill something in combat, they do not have the option to try and weaken in it close combat first. Also, as a troops choice they are not very good against mech, only having S4 attacks that hope to glance, and a few power Claw Atacks. (shoota boys are another matter,I think they are more versatile being able to shoot stuff they do not want to fight in combat, but they stil do not handle mech efficiently)


I guess I am always surprised that other people do not see how powerful the Grey hunter is for its points. They Shoot better then Regular marines. 2x specials, can take specials with a 5 man squad, and acute senses if you need it. They fight in close combat FAR better then regular marines. Most of the time they get 3 attacks, MotW, and the Standard. THEN they are 1 pt cheaper (15 vs 16) AND a PF Combi Sargent is 18 pts cheaper (Space marines get one for 16+10+25+10=61 where a WGPL is 18+20+5=43).


-----------------------------------------
My top three troops
1) Grey Hunters - This is a squad that can do everything well. Shooting, combat and good transport options. Plus they are the blue light special for marines, everything they get is priced just a little to low.

2) Veterans - Least Expensive BS4 unit in the game, combines with very good weapon density, 3 special and a heavy per 10. Lots of bang, but fragile. Thankfully they have a transport with 5 fire points, so it is no problem.

3) Blood Angel Assault Marines - Very Cheap Razorback squads, Good rules for Deep Striking. Then add in some of the best force multipliers (Unleash rage and Priest) and you have a very good squad.

Honorable mentions- Ork Boys and Tervigons