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2011/03/22 23:46:31
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-controversy-over-creationist-libertyville-teacher-isnt-dead-20110322,0,5003950.story
You guys got Any thoughts of this? I found this out at my school. I thought this is kinda of a stupid issue.... Especially If I knew some students in the class room were only discussing the differences between Creationism and Evolution... And the teacher apparently didn't add anything and left it as. "Choose what you want to believe, but I really am not the guy, who teaches this stuff. Just to let you guys know how bad a creationism vs evolution fight can become."
That was his lesson... Anyone else hear about this?
I don't know if dakka dakka will allow me to do post this in the fact it is a religion fight.
The issue of a Libertyville High School instructor teaching creationism in the science classroom is likely to be brought up in the public comment section of tonight's Community High School District 128 board meeting.
Atheist activist Rob Sherman is expected to make an appearance in an attempt to get the creationist-promoting teacher fired.
District officials have said they have spoken with science teacher Beau Schaefer and confirmed that he was teaching creationist beliefs at the high school. Schaefer has not returned calls seeking comment.
The school board is scheduled to go into executive session to discuss the employment of an unidentified employee and take action on that discussion Tuesday evening. It is not known if that employee is Schaefer. District officials say any personnel issues will be discussed behind closed doors.
The school board meeting is set for 7 p.m. at the Vernon Hills High School Library, 145 N. Lakeview Parkway in Vernon Hills.
“Steps have been taken to ensure that this teacher will no longer use creationism as part of his classroom instruction,” Mary Todoric, director of communications, said last week. “Furthermore, the district has taken appropriate steps to ensure that all science teachers are not referencing or teaching creationism.”
Even so, Buffalo Grove-based activist Sherman has said he plans to speak at the board meeting, representing five parents and the sibling of an LHS student who have contacted him out of concern that their students might have been graded on their knowledge of Schaefer’s religious teachings.
“It has nothing to do with being dissatisfied,” Sherman said. “I’m protecting conquered territory and assisting parents who want the teacher fired by articulating their concerns. What I’m trying to do is remind the board with my presence that creationism in the classroom is undesirable and according to the Supreme Court it is illegal. ”
For example, in a quiz allegedly assigned by Schaefer, Sherman claims some questions lead students to creationist beliefs, swaying them toward the notion that evolution is not scientific. That goes against the Illinois State Board of Education’s 11th grade science assessment framework, Sherman said.
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that creationism is not scientific, but is a religious Christian belief that God created mankind and that it is unconstitutional to advance a particular religious belief in the classroom.
However, dissenters such as Justice Antonin Scalia and Chief Justice William Rehnquist have said that decision goes against protecting educational freedom.
However, Sherman has said he has been hearing from people on both sides of the argument — some saying they want creationism to be taught in the classroom and that they are expected to speak at the Tuesday meeting in support of Schaefer.
“Anyone choosing to attend the board meeting has the opportunity to speak during the “invitation for public comment” section of the agenda,” Todoric said. “There will be no discussion of the science curriculum or Mr. Schaefer… Personnel matters are never discussed publicly.”
And lets all re-frame from going into a Gilbrathe style. I am going to step back and let everyone discuss this issue. It kind angers me that my state, has to get caught up in this thing. Rob Sherman if you don't know him is a radical Atheist, and he loves the spotlight of the public. Is he just trying to get the freaking sunlight back. And he doesn't even live in libertyville, he lives in Buffalo Grove.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/23 00:00:27
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2011/03/22 23:58:09
Subject: So Now it is illegal for people to debate creationism in classrooms?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Your title doesn't remotely relate to the reality of the situation. He wasn't hired to teach kids his religious beliefs, and even if they weren't his it still isn't science and thus shouldn't be in a science class. If you are hired to do one job and you do another it stands to reason you might not keep that job.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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2011/03/22 23:59:40
Subject: So Now it is illegal for people to debate creationism in classrooms?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Ahtman wrote:Your title doesn't remotely relate to the reality of the situation. He wasn't hired to teach kids his religious beliefs, and even if they weren't his it still isn't science and thus shouldn't be in a science class. If you are hired to do one job and you do another it stands to reason you might not keep that job.
Well, I could say, he really didn't teach creationism... At all... Just showed the myths of all of creationism as they were all on the evolution unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 00:01:49
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2011/03/23 00:01:15
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Fixture of Dakka
On a boat, Trying not to die.
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The teachers in my school all start off the Evolution unit with, "We will be learning evolution. If you do not believe in evolution that is fine. I will be teaching you what science believes occurs. If you think that God created us, that's fine."
I think that's a good speech to give to kids on the first day of Evolution.
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Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats. |
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2011/03/23 00:03:47
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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The OP seems to have facts that weren't in the article, so I can't really comment...
But screw it.
Creationism has no place in public school science classes. There is no serious scientific debate that any high school level student needs to concern himself with. The controversy in political, and need not be taught in science.
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2011/03/23 00:08:10
Subject: So Now it is illegal for people to debate creationism in classrooms?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Asherian Command wrote:Well, I could say, he really didn't teach creationism... At all... Just showed the myths of all of creationism as they were all on the evolution unit.
You could say that but no one would be stupid enough to believe it. It should have been broached at all. It isn't the place for that discussion or debate. One doesn't accidentally, or incidentally, bring creationism into a science classroom.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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2011/03/23 00:08:23
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Heres another article..... By the way he was my teacher, a few years ago. And he said he would stop teaching it. And he has been doing this for 15 years.... http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979128982
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 00:09:12
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2011/03/23 00:12:05
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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So did he stop doing it or not? The article here backs up what the rest of us have been saying so I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an old incident that has been resolved.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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2011/03/23 00:14:38
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Ahtman wrote:
So did he stop doing it or not? The article here backs up what the rest of us have been saying so I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an old incident that has been resolved.
He stopped doing it. He immediately did when he was told to. Thats all I can add on the issue.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2011/03/23 00:22:09
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Asherian Command wrote:Ahtman wrote:
So did he stop doing it or not? The article here backs up what the rest of us have been saying so I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an old incident that has been resolved.
He stopped doing it. He immediately did when he was told to. Thats all I can add on the issue.
Again, what is the point of this thread? That science will now be taught in science class? It seems like you are dancing around something but not coming out and saying it. Now you are being coy about what you can and can't say? Something seriously disingenuous going on here.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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2011/03/23 01:13:45
Subject: Re:Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Seems to me that what the OP describes, that being a debate that the teacher didn't input upon, isn't remotely what is referenced in the article, which is actual teaching of it as though it has some merit in fact. Religion and creationism do not belong in science class - religion as an academic study pertaining to anthropology, history and culture, belongs in RE and creationism and religious-beliefs-taught-as-fact does not belong in schools full stop. The teachers in my school all start off the Evolution unit with, "We will be learning evolution. If you do not believe in evolution that is fine. I will be teaching you what science believes occurs. If you think that God created us, that's fine."
I think that's a good speech to give to kids on the first day of Evolution.
I don't think it's 'fine' because creationism is factually wrong. It's a failure in education to tell people that it's 'fine' to reject the values of established fact in place of fiction. So much for learning analytical skills. There's no other way of looking at creationism, it's bunkum. It's not a popularity contest in which you can pick your favourite belief and all are equally valid positions to hold. It's as wrong to acquiesce to these views in a science class as it is to tell kids that believing in holocaust denial is 'fine' in history study and flat-earth belief is 'fine' in geography.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/23 01:15:46
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2011/03/23 05:25:50
Subject: Re:Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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I agree that a teacher who inadvertantly allows a creationist/evolution "debate" to happen shouldn't be fired.
I also believe that a teacher who continually makes references to creationist arguments, and who continues to do so despite being instructed by his school to stop, should be fired.
I have which of the above has actually happened.
I also have no idea what a radical atheist is. "I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, don't believe in God!"
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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2011/03/23 05:46:07
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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lol
Radial atheists go around saying they don't believe in God.
It is not that certain from the article if he deliberately taught Creationism, though it is inferred.
If it was the case he should get expelled.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 05:46:25
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2011/03/23 05:54:23
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:lol
Radial atheists go around saying they don't believe in God.
But if a Christian goes around saying he believes in God, is he a radical Christian?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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2011/03/23 05:59:19
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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No, they would be radial Christians 
Lost constonants a la the Guardian newspaper, Sebster.
http://www.grahamrawle.com/lostconsonants/index.html
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2011/03/23 06:04:48
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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I saw you typed 'radial' but I didn't get the joke, because no-one had mistyped radical before you... Am I missing something?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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2011/03/23 06:52:28
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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There's nothing wrong with this at all. It was a high school, they aren't kids, they're young adults and debates like this should and do take place in every other high school in the country, either teacher sponsored or otherwise.
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2011/03/23 06:53:54
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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samusaran253 wrote:There's nothing wrong with this at all. It was a high school, they aren't kids, they're young adults and debates like this should and do take place in every other high school in the country, either teacher sponsored or otherwise.
The issue isn't age, the issue is the teacher being put in a place of trust over other people's children.
EDIT - To clarify, he's using his position of trust as a teacher of science to give creationism a veneer of science that just plain doesn't exist.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 07:35:46
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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2011/03/23 07:18:45
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
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samusaran253 wrote:There's nothing wrong with this at all. It was a high school, they aren't kids, they're young adults and debates like this should and do take place in every other high school in the country, either teacher sponsored or otherwise.
The problem is that he's teaching creationism. Which has no evidence or scientific background at all. There really isn't much to debate about without rejecting established empirical fact. If you're teaching science, then teach science. If you want to teach religion, teach religious studies (and teach ALL religions, not just yours) or anthropology. If you want to talk religion, then join the priesthood.
Sure, they may be high school students with decent ability to think for themselves, but that doesn't stop the impact of poor education. It's disturbing how many Americans don't actually know what evolution really means or how it works.
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2011/03/23 07:52:45
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Noble of the Alter Kindred
United Kingdom
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Was a joke Sebster.
Radial, around?
lost constonant
[frankie-howard]ooo please yourself missus[/frankie-howard]
I made it up for fun as I thought it might amuse
it didn't 
I apologise.
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2011/03/23 11:34:15
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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EDIT: Lets keep this one polite people.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 12:08:49
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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2011/03/23 14:34:23
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Radial atheists go around saying they don't believe in God.
The existence of god should be neither here nor there in a science class. Creationism is factually wrong and clashes with established science, but god's existence shouldn't be brought into science class for arguments either way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/23 14:34:48
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2011/03/23 15:09:48
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Freaky Flayed One
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It isn't the debate that is in issue. Point and counterpoint is an integral part of the education process. It is that he "confirmed that he was teaching creationism." Teaching creationism is a no-no. Whether you agree with it or not, the Theory of Evolution is a part of the Scientific Standard course of Study. Allowing students who believe differently to offer debate is fine, but the instructor teaching that any single religious precept is the one actual truth is prohibited in the public school.
Even a simpler example than evolution. If in a history class while studying the reformation the teacher continually states that the protestant side of things is the one true christianity, that teacher would also face termination. Or if while studying eastern philosophy the teacher continually stated that Taoist philosophy was superior to Tibetan teachings than the same thing.
A teacher can offer multiple views and academic discussion but may not color the instruction with their own personal beliefs or agendas, plain and simple.
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2011/03/23 15:21:32
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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There it is in a nutshell.
Good post by Asphalt rounding up this issue.
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2011/03/23 15:24:25
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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No its not actually.
Define "teaching creationism." That can be as little as opening up a debate on it. Everything else is babble by atheist who wants to berate the school board and po0litely should feth off. There are more important things to worry about than his I hate God because he's been mean to me agenda.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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2011/03/23 15:38:19
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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Countdown to Frazzled ragelocking this thread....
10....9....8...
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 Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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2011/03/23 15:39:04
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Frazzled wrote:Define "teaching creationism."
Suddenly you are attacked by a wild Frazzled. The Wild Frazzled uses "Lawyering".
Define 'define'.
Considering the school board, including teachers and people with experience in Education found, after an investigation, that he was teaching it, it is probably fair to say that he was. They may not be able to define it, but they know it when they see it. Actually they probably can define it, and perhaps did. We haven't read the transcript of the meeting or the investigation records.
Frazzled wrote:That can be as little as opening up a debate on it. Everything else is babble by atheist who wants to berate the school board and po0litely should feth off. There are more important things to worry about than his I hate God because he's been mean to me agenda.
But the Supreme Court ruled that it wasn't the place for that conversation, so there can be little debate as to whether he broke the law. Everything else is just babble by a Christian who wants to use his public school position to force his beliefs on other peoples children and should politely feth off. There are more important things to worry about than his "I love my imaginary friend and you should to so I'm going to teach it in a classroom but if I were a Muslim doing this Frazzled would be up in arms" agenda.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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2011/03/23 15:43:26
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Albatross wrote:Countdown to Frazzled ragelocking this thread....
10....9....8...
I'm actually mellow Albie. Dealing with others in the Real World ragelocking so I am a mellow fellow.
Oh wait, I can't lose an excuse to say "GET OFF MY BALLS!" 
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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2011/03/23 15:43:47
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Ahtman wrote:
But the Supreme Court ruled that it wasn't the place for that conversation, so there can be little debate as to whether he broke the law. Everything else is just babble by a Christian who wants to use his public school position to force his beliefs on other peoples children and should politely feth off. There are more important things to worry about than his "I love my imaginary friend and you should to so I'm going to teach it in a classroom but if I were a Muslim doing this Frazzled would be up in arms" agenda.
I see what you did there : )
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2011/03/23 15:45:50
Subject: Teacher to be fired for allowing kids to debate creationism in the classroom?
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Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna
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Fafnir wrote:If you want to teach religion, teach religious studies (and teach ALL religions, not just yours) or anthropology.
There isn't enough time in the year. :(
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