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Whilst flicking through the new Grey Knights codex in store today, I decided to check the Troops section rather than the fancy toys in HQ and Elites; I was shocked to see a basic Grey Knights squad coming in at just 10 points more than a standard Space Marine Tactical squad.

I'm not normally one to moan *cough* honest! *cough* but it makes me wonder if perhaps we humble Marine players might be allowed a few points knocked off our Marines who aren't all armed with Force Weapons, Storm Bolters and other assorted goodies - or maybe, god forbid, be allowed more than one close combat, special and/or heavy weapon. Even being able to field up to one Dev or Assault squad as a troop choice would be handy given how poor Tactical squads are compared to everyone elses Troop choices (I'm not saying Tacticals are rubbish, just that they wouldn't be at the top of the list of 40k troop choices).

When I look at what else can be taken for c.200pts across the game, and compare it to a standard 10 man Tactical Squad, they just don't seem to stack up - I'm really struggling to to see how their points are justified - or is it just me?

I'm sorry to be this short and blunt, but...

Welcome to Codex Creep.

P.S. Several other armies "have it worse".

Yeah I knew that their new codex would make them op and that every will suffer from the little kids freaking out. Snatching them up and going crazy with them.

But hey now marines will not get bagged on as bad for being a cheap army to use.

Neither.

You cannot really compare units in different armies in a vacuum. A Tactical Squad will usually have a few tricks supporting it, while Grey Knights will have a few tricks intended to help the army do something completely different.

I think the point the OP is trying to make is:

Tacticals are 16 points for MEQ stats and a boltgun.

GK are 4 more points for MEQ stats, a complete squad of power weapons, storm bolters, psychic powers including squad wide force weapon attacks, 1+ str, and anti deepstrike. 5 GK will match the firepower of 10 space marines at 24. GK can move backwards and shoot, or fire and assault, can take awesome special / heavy weapons, not to mention uber NFW.

Tacticals get free flamers and missile lawn chairs, which isnt bad, but tacticals are versatile. They can take on almost any type of target. And they cost less

Jaon wrote:I think the point the OP is trying to make is:

Tacticals are 16 points for MEQ stats and a boltgun.

GK are 4 more points for MEQ stats, a complete squad of power weapons, storm bolters, psychic powers including squad wide force weapon attacks, 1+ str, and anti deepstrike. 5 GK will match the firepower of 10 space marines at 24. GK can move backwards and shoot, or fire and assault, can take awesome special / heavy weapons, not to mention uber NFW.

Tacticals get free flamers and missile lawn chairs, which isnt bad, but tacticals are versatile. They can take on almost any type of target. And they cost less

Tacticals do also get bolt pistols. IDK if grey knights do, but they do allow Tac squads to shoot and then assault, albeit at a lower output.

I start every list with 360 points spent on my troops. They have MEQ stats except for that pesky two initiative. Sure their guns are pretty good but if you're in range to rapid fire them you're dead next turn. Nine times out of ten I would rather have them hiding not doing anything or off the table waiting to come in at some obscure table edge.

Of course GK are a bit cheap for what they are. But, like has been said, that's the trend in newer armies.

Grey Knights are undercost compared to Tac squads, although that might balance out from their lack of options and anti-tank. It's just something we'll have to see.

In a straight up comparison, the Tac's are probably a bit expensive relative to the GK's. In a wider metagame sense however, I think they balance rather well. GKSS's CC advantages don't matter a whole lot against many opponents (IG, Orks, DE, Tau, etc) due to primarily being anti-MEQ/MC in nature, and their fewer numbers make them easier to destroy for everyone else.

Grim.Badger wrote:I was shocked to see a basic Grey Knights squad coming in at just 10 points more than a standard Space Marine Tactical squad.

30 points.

Tactical Marines are slightly underwhelming when compared to other MEQ troops (Grey Hunters, BA Assault Squads, Grey Knights), but I guess thats the codex creep for you. At least we all get 3+ saves!

Mahtamori wrote:I'm sorry to be this short and blunt, but...

Welcome to Codex Creep.

P.S. Several other armies "have it worse".

Hallelujah brother!

PraetorDave wrote:

Jaon wrote:I think the point the OP is trying to make is:

Tacticals are 16 points for MEQ stats and a boltgun.

GK are 4 more points for MEQ stats, a complete squad of power weapons, storm bolters, psychic powers including squad wide force weapon attacks, 1+ str, and anti deepstrike. 5 GK will match the firepower of 10 space marines at 24. GK can move backwards and shoot, or fire and assault, can take awesome special / heavy weapons, not to mention uber NFW.

Tacticals get free flamers and missile lawn chairs, which isnt bad, but tacticals are versatile. They can take on almost any type of target. And they cost less

Tacticals do also get bolt pistols. IDK if grey knights do, but they do allow Tac squads to shoot and then assault, albeit at a lower output.

I have something sad to tell you. Storm bolters are Assault 2.

Hypno toad is awesome.

Oh and yeah, its classic codex creep. I'd have to say in this case its actually not that bad...not like having 5 weapons in a dev squad that can shoot 2 targets.

Codex Creep is not defined as "look at everything else in the army list and compare it to what the army can do as a whole" like you guys seem to think.

Grey Knight Strike teams are 20 points in a Grey Knights army. They'd be more in a C:SM army.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:I was shocked to see a basic Grey Knights squad coming in at just 10 points more than a standard Space Marine Tactical squad.

30 points.

I don't want to sound like a ****, but Grey Knights are 100pts and Tacticals are 90pts.

My point is basically that, as basic un-upgraded units, they aren't even close to comparable - Grey Knights shoot better and are much better in close combat thanks to their force weapons (which are power weapons remember) - effectively it's like saying a power weapon and storm bolter upgrade for a MEQ only costs 4pts! and that's ignoring the GKs special rules.

I know about Codex Creep, I also play Necrons!

Grim.Badger wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:I was shocked to see a basic Grey Knights squad coming in at just 10 points more than a standard Space Marine Tactical squad.

30 points.

I don't want to sound like a ****, but Grey Knights are 100pts and Tacticals are 90pts.

My point is basically that, as basic un-upgraded units, they aren't even close to comparable - Grey Knights shoot better and are much better in close combat thanks to their force weapons (which are power weapons remember) - effectively it's like saying a power weapon and storm bolter upgrade for a MEQ only costs 4pts! and that's ignoring the GKs special rules.

I know about Codex Creep, I also play Necrons!

Apples to Oranges, for 90 points you can get 15 boyz of any vareity. There's so many of them, surely that must be OP?

Grim.Badger wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:I was shocked to see a basic Grey Knights squad coming in at just 10 points more than a standard Space Marine Tactical squad.

30 points.

I don't want to sound like a ****, but Grey Knights are 100pts and Tacticals are 90pts.

My point is basically that, as basic un-upgraded units, they aren't even close to comparable - Grey Knights shoot better and are much better in close combat thanks to their force weapons (which are power weapons remember) - effectively it's like saying a power weapon and storm bolter upgrade for a MEQ only costs 4pts! and that's ignoring the GKs special rules.

I know about Codex Creep, I also play Necrons!

I agree with you 100% up to the point of where the Tactical marines have a hell of alot more versatility and options ...
but yes outside of that in a general bland min purchase ... ya can easily

Grim.Badger wrote:
I don't want to sound like a ****, but Grey Knights are 100pts and Tacticals are 90pts.

Oh, you meant only 5? That's even a more ludicrous comparison to make.

Sure, 10 points difference there, and they both suck.