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Hi all, after getting pounded yet again with a 2500pts Marine vs 2500pts Chaos I must admit its getting old fast. So thought I'd ask for some help to find out if I'm plain awful with tactics or using the wrong unit choices for the battle. The battle generally goes well for me up until he gets into CC with me and then it seems to go pear-shaped. Even when I blast his transports early he still manages to get accross the table and hammers me.

He usually takes ((most have mark of slanesh))spelling
1-Daemon princes with wings
1-Daemon princes with wings
10-Troops with Rhino Nurgle with plasmagun
10-Troops with Rhino Korne with plasmagun
10-Troops with Rhino (not sure) with meltagun
8-Raptor Squad with lightning claws and meltagun
1-Dreadnought with Lascannon and claw
1-Dreadnought with Lascannon and claw
3-Obliterators
8-Havocs with 2missile 1 lascannon 1 autoreaper
8-Havocs with 2missile 1 lascannon 1 autoreaper



My force usually is
1-Cato Siccus
10-Tactical with powerfist and meltagun and Rhino
10-Tactical with powerfist and meltagun and Rhino
10-Tactical with powerfist and meltagun and Rhino
6-Scouts with shotguns
6-Scouts with 5sniper, 1heavy bolter
1-Dreadnought with Lascannon and Claw
1-Dreadnought with Autocannon and Autocannon
6-Terminators with 1cyclone
2-Landspeeder Typhoon with Heavy Bolter
1-Landspeeder Typhoon with Heavy Bolter
8-Assualt Marines with powerfist
1-Predator with Lascannon Turret
1-Predator with Lascannon Turret
8-Devastator with 3missile and 1lascannon


My tactics is to hide the assualt marines behind cover and slowly get them somewhere that I can hopefully plough into a combat or wait until needed. My opponent does the exact same with his raptor's as I learnt the trick from him. The scouts are there more to be annoying and to distract.

So what I'm really looking for from you guys is if you think I'm just plain using them wrong and it is in fact a good list in the right hands, or if I have a bad list which isn't helping such as too many guns and not enough troops etc.

Help me obi-wan, your my only hope

He uses Chaos Dreads? A brave man. I feel bad for helping his enemies!


You may want to replace the Land Speeders with multi-melta versions. I like Cato Sicarious, but he's not hleping this list too much, since he can't use his instant-death attack on the Daemon Princes.

You need something fast that can shut down his Obliterators. Jump infantry or more terminator missile launchers might do it, though lascannons are great too.

You need something to put CC fear into his mind. Normally that's the job of assault terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, but they usually require a land raider (Redeemer or Crusader) to deliver them, and that get pricey.

My main advice would be to get rid of the Scouts and the devastators (they are expensive for what they do). Get a variant Land Raider with an extra multi-melta. Pop the rhino with the Khorne troops and assault the contents with the thunder hammer termies. Then focus on the Daemon Princes.

Daemon princes fall easily to meltas and lascannons, and even mass bolter fire will hurt their T5 (unless they are Nurgle princes). The hurricane bolters on the LR Crusader are very good at this.

I used the scouts primarily as fodder, they can give some extra firepower and in certain missions they would be quick throw away units to help me get objectives but on the other hand, getting rid of them and replacing them with something else would proberly be best.

Might try running more termies with a Landraider, got to blow the dust of it first And consider Sato dropped. He stood up to the demon for three rounds of CC but was ultimatly useless in this list. If going with the landraider then proberly would be good to use assualt ermies instead.

As for the typhoon, I like the typhoon very much, costs a bit to upgrade but can fly around popping 2x range 48 missiles each turn. If I dropped them to just multimelta's then I have to get a lot closer and increase the chances of getting them destroyed by small arms. I'm willing to give it a go, hopefully the differences in the list will balance it up.

His dreads tend to do a resonable amount of damange but are never game breaking, he uses them more to coax me into shooting them as he knows I don;t want a str10 dread battering my troops.

Thanks for the advice, pretty much everything you said is good advice which I'm going to try.

Small arms likely won't drop a Land speeder: he'll have to devote autocannons and lascannons to do it, and if they are shooting at the LSs they are -not- shooting your rhinos and land raider, so they are doubly useful. Though the missiles are not bad; since you said you do well at range and things get dicey up close, though, I'd invest more in goos armor-poppers.

Instead of Cato, you may want to get a Chaplain. I like Cassius a lot. He has a cool pistol and T 6 (!!), meaning even a pop from a power fist won't drop him. Put him with an assault unit and they will hit a LOT if you get the charge.

A Librarian might also be good, especially if his princes are psykers.

In elite armies like SM (and CSM), you usually can't afford fodder. Everything on the table has to carry its own weight. A friend of mine always tries hiding scouts in a land Speeder to hop out of ruins on turn 5 and claim an objective. However, games often last past turn 5 and they get pulped.

Orks, Guard and Nids can afford to throw stuff away; they can get lots of bodies for 60 points. We need to be efficient!

Good point.

I used to run a simple chaplain with jump pack to go with my assualt marines. When I switched tactics and went down to 8 assualt marines the chaplain ended up with the tactical squads. But, since I can't put him in the rhino I dropped him altogether so just had one HQ choice in the form of a captain with power sword. Nice and cheap HQ and meant more upgrades for the rest of the army.

Either way I definatly dropping the higher priced HQ charactors and going back to my cheaper ones I always used to have. Scouts also dropped. My main challenge will be reworking the list to fit a landraider in. Most of the work will be done by dropping the HQ and scouts. Dropping the typhoons to multi-melta's and I should just about have it.

A chaplain with the TH/SS termies will be very efficient, making pretty much all of their attacks connect and also giving you a few armor-ignoring attacks at I4.

If you still need points, shaving the Devastator squad a bit (or entirely) might help. Sadly, SW Long Fangs are the only truly feasible heavy-weapon infantry in the top tiers now.

Just look at the differences between your tac marines and your opponent's CSM. Your opponent pays +1/3 to +1/2 for his troops choices in order to make them rock in close combat, while still being as good at shooting. While you can't make your stuff better, your stuff will always be cheaper. I'd recommend lightening your list of some of the junk (like all your vehicles but the dreads), so that you can do the one thing you can do better than him: spam units.

I mean, how to you expect to win when you're bringing as much infantry as him, but his is 33% to 50% better than yours?

Daaaaamn! Chaos dreads? Do you here a clinking noise from this guy's pants when he walks around?

I suggest not to use scouts against marines. If you play kill points they are probably going to be a major weakness too, since none of them can pierce armor, unless you roll a six for rending. should you target infantry with them you probably wont do much neither since on average you get one wound with 5 snipers.

tactic wise, I suggest that you first focus on the rhino's and obliterators first rather than the dreadnoughts, since you have a 1/3 chance that they may help you game wise every turn due to crazed. Remember, that the obliterators are much more easier to kill with lascannons.

If you want to keep your scouts, I suggest that you use them to distract and possibly assault his havocs to stall them until your assault marines come in. Also, power weapons with assaulting scouts are very important too, especially since they only have a 4+ armor save and not a 3+.

Thats some good advice

I've also tended to go powerfist heavy in all the units that can take them, mainly because he always picks Slanessh and gets +1 to his initative so I thought if he is always going to go first I may as well go with powerfists rather than power weapons. What are your thoughts on that? Good call or waste of points?

Appriciating all the advice from everyone, after losing so much you can't help but get a little disheartened at the game. Hence why I'm trying to pick up my game rather than be one of those people that just moan about Marines being broken, hehe

I see a lot of troop choices in this list. Codex marine troop choices (In my opinion BOTH Tacs and scouts) compared to other MEQ armies can generally be described as "Pfffff." I'd drop some to make room for points.

I'd also drop cato, as fun as he is, to take a librarian or chaplain depending on taste and how much you need null zone/avenger.
Speeders I would actually say are pretty decent, you get to fire 2 krak missles or 2 frag and the HB...not a terrible setup. I prefer the MM/HF option myself, but it's not bad.
Shooty terminators - Not a fan, usually use Sternguard instead. My experience it will be the plasma apocalypse regardless, use going to ground and combat tactics to give yourself a 6+ cover when the going gets tough if you must.
Predators - Have you considered autocannon turret + lascannon sponson configuration? Yes, you lose the twin linked LC if you move, but you can also switch over to the autocannon for rhino popping. Or a LOT more firepower if you hold still, and it costs no more than TLLC turret + no sponsons.
Devastators - I love devastator squads. I really do, but...Look at my profile avatar. They are a fixed firepower unit that costs more than mobile units that have comparable firepower. You could more than buy 3 multimelta land speeders, and even add heavy flamers to each and have a fast moving multipurpose unit that can manuever around their cover and hit them where it hurts before the inevitable pain arrives. You could, with a little extra point cutting, afford a -Land raider- for cripes sake, and be able to play all sorts of cover/LOS games.

...And If you did the above, and cut some troop squads or the assault marines, you could easily get a land raider crusader and 8 thunderhammers to fill it. What do you want to bet that a Crusader, at minimum, dumping a TLAC and 12 bolter shots and then 8 TH/SS, or 7 TH/SS and your HQ pop out screaming about Sparta or the Emperor or something, will go quite a way to solving your DP/dread related CC problems?

I've also tended to go powerfist heavy in all the units that can take them, mainly because he always picks Slanessh and gets +1 to his initative so I thought if he is always going to go first I may as well go with powerfists rather than power weapons. What are your thoughts on that? Good call or waste of points?

I think it's a good idea. I've had combats tipped in my favor plenty of times by having a couple 2+ wounding power attacks thrown into the mix. It's also comforting to have vs. dreads and MCs. They hurt to buy, but...

From a strategic view point you need to be thinning his line out. Try a feint to get his CC units pulling forward. Whether you sacrifice a unit to do this or not is up to you. If you set up your scouts in an enticing position and retreat them as he gets nearer...
Another tactic I love is the refused flank. Always works better if you can set up last. Set up facing his big guns and fast attack as he brings his CC units Around the flank. He'll get bunched up and won't get the best out of his movement.
Think like Hannibal! If you have units (landspeeders et al) outflank him by making your main body of troops too enticing to resist. Let your centre collapse (seemingly!) and buzz your Fast Attack around the back. Annihilation!
I always play the fluff. I'm not always going to win but when I do it's because my strategy worked even with limitations in my list.

hey, I fight a Chaos player practically very week and he has most units going so i've played against most variations and the most he ever comes out with is a draw.

He uses a very similar army. swap out the dreads and the predators for a few defilers and a landraider and you've got his usual. so here goes....

His Raptors are annoying so always try and position yours in a position to counter his as soon as you can. its more often a mutually assured destruction but it stops his getting into your lines.

The obliterators i usually take a few heavy bolters to to make sure i cause wounds rather than firing a whole tank or Devestator squad at one model, leaving them free to shoot other, larger targets.

His dreadnoughts you should be able to match with yours or even one venerable with a lascannon(twin linked hitting on two's) just to make sure your always at least hitting. mine always gets his points back.

The deamon princes are annoying especially if used with wings. Massed bolter fire is the best and it saves your heavy weapons to take out his other stuff. Create an arrowhead formation with three units of space mairines in front of where he deploys. try and get him to assault the point and fall back after the assault leaving him right in the open with two units waiting. A few plasma/melta shots would only increase your chances.

forget your rhinos and try and bring him onto you. take out his rhinos and if you add a vindicator(cheap, large blast, NICE!!!!) you can take out his bezerkers with one shot if your lucky. i know it sounds like a lot of luck but it happens more often than not in my games.

Forget the landspeeders and the rhinos as he has way better combat skills with his army so why only shorten the game by getting close. you might not like it but be prepared to be defensive. Getting into the back of somebodies army doesnt mean you win, its not warahmmer after all and there are no bonuses apart from AP against tanks to be gained. your best off getting a few more assault marines that can help tip the balance just incase something gets abit heated.

Hopefully this helps. it worlks pretty well for me but its all down to the dice.

Good luck man, let me know how you get on.

Garviel

If he is using slaanesh with Lash the two easy things I would look at doing was:

1. Switch Siccarius for a librarian. The psychic hood will do a number on his lash in addition you can pick a good offensive spell.

2. Lose the termies and the scouts for another tac squad or perhaps a sterngard squad and rhino or razorback them up. Remember that two can fire out of the rhino no matter what so say 5 sternguard with two plasma cannons, the two plasma cannons can fire out every turn. Likewise two missile launchers can fire out of a rhino with one still getting the sgt assist.

3. Landspeeders are your friend - these give you speed and firepower that cannot get lashed. Cheap 60 pts and you have two heavy bolters or 90 pts and you have a typhoon. These can take out pretty much everything. Remember ML is double the T of nurglings so no FNP.

Thank you all for your advice, seems that everyone is agreeing on a few things like dropping Siccarius, and then going into two camps of dropping a lot of the heavies in favour of more troops/landspeeders, or going termie strong and dropping the scouts and landspeeders.

Will draw up two lists based on these tactics and post them up. I'm hoping for a rematch this saturday or the next so if its good news I'll post it on here. If it isn't then I'll just keep quiet

Some general thoughts---as I don't know how much you want to change your list. So keep in mind---whatever suggestions I make are just suggestions and if you want to play a certain unit/character because you enjoy the fluff----rock on. Anyways;



Cato isn't that great. Vulkan is superior----or just a general Libby with Null Zone and a Chap

I don't believe Tactical Marines should ever have power fists. They should be running away from combats they can't win (Which is pretty much anyone but Guard)----and one power fist kill a turn isn't going to win you combat against anything dedicated to it.

If you take 10 Man Tac Squads----you need to take the free heavy and combat squad them. Five in a rhino toting melta + five at home shooting a Las/ML. Las Cannons will be better in this case as they ID his Oblits---which should be target one first turn.

I would drop a Scout squad. One scout squad with Tel upgrade (He gives the entire unit Stealth--he's an auto include if you take Scouts). Give them snipers/ML and let them squat with him.

I always run my Dreads w/ MM standard. Riflemen Dreads are fine though----but I don't like Las Dreads. Give him a MM--run him behind your rhinos for an obscured and I think you'll be quite happy. Plus Dreads can really ruin a PM players day---especially one that runs plasma PMs.

MM/HF Speeders are the superior choice IMO----but if you like Typhoons they're ok

Assault Marines are weak---if you like them, cool---but you're handicapping yourself.

Preds are kitted out in two ways---AT or Anti-Infantry. AT Build = Autocannon Turret, Las sponsons. Anti-infantry build = Autocannon Turret, Heavy Bolter sponsons. A Lascannon Turret Pred suffers one weapon destroyed and is useless----and only puts out one las shot a turn.

Devs are a bit over priced in the vanilla Marine Dex----but if you run them I would just go straight ML



Just thoughts!