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We've all heard it discussed here: how to guarantee a 3+ ward save and stubborn to a unit of chosen.

I know this isn't exactly a 'tactic,' so if somebody wants to move the thread where it belongs, I won't be offended. However, what's been interesting to me is how, in our area, people look at the math, recognize the mathematical certainty, and then don't make the dbag who took this cheese actually roll any dice.

In order to absolutely guarantee getting the result on the table, our chaos player should have to do a LOT of re-rolling. Does anybody else thing it would be some poetic justice to actually force mister powergamer (or Ms, I suppose) to do all that rolling before the game begins?

"Congratulations on your stubborn unit, which will under no circumstances ever make it to combat since we're only going to play the first two turns "

What do people think? Is that just being a jerk, or would you call it fighting fire with fire?

it is far from garunteed.


Each time you roll, you have 8.3% chance of getting the 3+ ward and stubborn(roll of 11 or 12)

each time you roll you have a 19.4% chance of getting stuck with one of the stat boosts(Roll of 4 or 5)

you also have a 72.2% chance of rolling again(roll of 2, 3, 6, 7-10)


The cheezy set up really only garuntees you get something useful(no MR or Causing Fear/Terror)


Now, on average, there shouldn't be more then 3-4 rolls before he gets stuck with something so the rolling won't take super long.

Malleus wrote: Does anybody else thing it would be some poetic justice to actually force mister powergamer (or Ms, I suppose) to do all that rolling before the game begins?

"Congratulations on your stubborn unit, which will under no circumstances ever make it to combat since we're only going to play the first two turns "

What do people think? Is that just being a jerk, or would you call it fighting fire with fire?

I suppose you'd do that against LM players with a Lore of Life Slann BSB with the Standard of Discipline in a unit of Temple Guard?

Or against an O&G player w/2xDoom Divers, 2xMangler Squigs, and a large unit of Savage Big'Uns?

Or against High Elves with the Book of Hoeth and Pheonix Guard?

Or against Empire with a Steamtank?

Or against Skaven with a Greyseer using the Dreaded 13th and a Plague Furnace?

Or against DE with 2xHydras?

Or against a horde of Ogre Kingdom Ironguts?

Or against Wood Elves with 12+ Treekin and a Level 4 Life Wizard?

Every army has it's own bit of cheese, why be a jerk to one in particular?

If you have a problem with just the amount of re-roll(possibly) needed, then cut out the middle man and have him only roll a D3 for the 3 choices he can't/won't re-roll (1-2=Result #4), (3-4=Result #5), (5-6=Result #12).

I do think the Chosenstar is a bit worse than, say, all the others.

But the case and point is as follows: there's no guarantee.

I disabled a chosen star with a lone dreadlord.
Coldone, cloak, heavy armor, dragon helm, reverse ward, stubborn crown, soul render.
4S6 armor piercing attacks, and a 1+ armor, reverse ward, 2+ ward vs fire, stubborn guy.
Kill the champ in the first round, and the bsb 4 rounds later.
Then he just tanked the unit the rest of the game, and my remaining 2200 points crushed his remaining 1500 points.
Sometimes, a really hard to kill speedbump is the best answer for those stupid death stars.

-Matt

Man. He probably shouldn't have had his characters standing next to each other, so you'd only be in btb with a single one when you charged, so the other wouldn't have to challenge you. Then he could make 9 attacks against you instead of 3 or 4 or whatever he was getting.

Except that as Warriors, he has to issue a challenge even if the character isn't actually in base to base combat, no?

Does he take the terror banner on that unit to increase his odds?

If I knew there was a mathematical certainty of something happening, I wouldn't make him roll it. If it wasn't certain, though... go ahead and roll.

Yea, Warriors of Chaos characters must always challenge whenever they can, and always accept.

Not only characters, but champions too if there is a Warshrine on the table.

Wehrkind wrote:Yea, Warriors of Chaos characters must always challenge whenever they can, and always accept.

Grey Templar wrote:Not only characters, but champions too if there is a Warshrine on the table.

Which is a serious liability when a GUO wielding the Balesword shows up....

With two warshrines, it becomes a mathematical certainty. As people have pointed out, there are only two options that don't allow either a re-roll or a shift to a reroll. Pre-game roll, shrine 1, shrine 2 mean you get everything you want.

Yeah its cheesy, yes i make them sit there and roll for 5-10 minutes ( if the match runs out of time to bad).

Course most of the time that units gets 13thed off the table, and I giggle to myself....

I honestly think it should be erratad so you cant reroll over and over and over, OR erratad so you cant bump the number up or down to force a reroll.

on average, the WoC player will make no more then 4 (re)rolls total before the chosen get stuck with something.

wow, that's pretty nasty, I don't have my book at work, but what spell is the most effective at dropping this unit. I have Fateweaver.

lore of metal spells that Fateweaver has access to.

that way you are wounding on at least 4+ and he just has his 3+ ward to combat it.

Or he can just go for dwellers below, 4+ 3- to kill is less effective than simply 5+ to kill.
Miasma and pit can be even better but getting both off will take some awesome luck.

Miasma + Pit is good, but the WoC player will probably see that one coming and plan accordingly.

Thats what i meant unless luck plays in he'll block it off.

Edit: The skaven dreaded 13th is awesome when used on chosen.

Yup, although again, it can be planned for.

Hey wait a minute. Can people that aren't Warriors only challenge models in b2b?

And while the Dreadlord speedbump is a good idea, I'll also point out that the armies who can put up such a defense are few and far between. Mainly because they don't have what amounts to a 2+ Ward save for 35pts.
Generally speaking, using a piece of your army to counter a piece of their's always leaves the possibility that they don't have that piece, and yours is wasted. Or, since the idea is that you use less points than they do, your counter isn't enough this time.
None of that matters with the Dreadlord example, though. He's pretty much awesome every way you look at it.

As for ways to take these guys down...there aren't any "good" ways, beyond the Dreaded 13th. They've got high S, high T, high I. None of the "Save or Die" spells are going to absolutely crush them. But it should kill upwards of a third of them, depending on the Eye of the Gods.
Of the Deathstars, this one is king.

Finally, one question: does the +1 S or T only occur once?

you can challange anyone who is in a unit in BtB with your unit.

Actually you issue a challenge, who accepts it is not really your choice.

Hmm Dwellers is a solid choice, since I'll have a life herald of Tzeentch as well. That should allow for two castings of it if needed.

i doubt you will have enough dice to cast 2 dwellers AND cast miasma in one turn.

especially if your 1st Dwellers was dispelled.