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So, I've been building a DE WWP army. I'd like to discuss the list I put together with you. I'm still tweaking the numbers, mainly adding or subtracting models from teams.

A premise: in my local gaming group, I rarely see more than 4 enemy vehicles on the table (luckily for me, I don't know what I'd do against a mech IG).

HQ

Archon, 120
Agoniser
Shadow Field
Ghostplate Armor

2x Homunculus, 2x 100
WWP
Hexrifle

ELITES

5 Incubi, 110

TROOPS

2x 9 Kabalite Warriors, 2x 96
Blaster

Dedicated transports:
2x Raider, 2x 70
Nightshield

2x 8 Wyches, 2x 126
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix with Agoniser

HEAVY SUPPORT

Razorwing Jetfighter, 155
Nightshield

Talos Pain Engine, 100

FAST ATTACK
3x Reaver, 78
1x Heat Lance

2x Beastmasters, 124
1x Clawed Fiend
5x Khymerae

Total 1471 pts - 29 points to play with.

The idea is to start with 2 raiders, the 2 warrior teams, and the homuncoli on the table. I zip towards the enemy on turn 1 using the vehicles, disembark, run to cover if possible, or just open the portals. Turn 2, either open the portals (if not already done) or start shooting. Usually one portal goes on the left side of the field, the other on the right side. After that, I normally pick one side and focus on cleaning it, then I move on to the rest of the enemies. I play it very aggressive (which usually means I win big or I lose big very quickly) and I go for objectives around turn 5. During KP missions, I just try to wipe the opponent.

Some considerations:
- The Archon goes with the Incubi (of course): I use them to crack open tough troops that the wyches can't handle, and go hero hunting in general. He can probably do without the ghostplate armor; it gives me psychological relief, but from experience I know that if the shadow field goes down, so will he, shortly thereafter.
- I gave Hexrifles to the Homunculi because after the portals are opened, they'll chill out with (what remains of) the warriors. In that case, I want them to do something more than picking their nose for the remaining turns.
- originally I started with 2 teams of 10 wyches, equipped with razorflails, but they used to break through the opposing troop in my assault phase, meaning they got wiped in the next shooting phase, to my extreme disappointment. 8 normal wyches provide a little less punch.
- Reavers are there mainly because I am worried about quick vehicles that can stay away from my wyches and the very few AT weapons I've got. Also, they fly, so they can come out of a portal that has been surrounded by enemy troops (same thing is valid for the Talos).
- I'm not sure about the Razorwing. Depending on the enemy army, I either start on the table or DS. I like how it can wipe blobs quickly, or go for the occasional vehicle, but there are probably better alternatives. I'd appreciate opinions on this.

Vetril wrote:So, I've been building a DE WWP army. I'd like to discuss the list I put together with you. I'm still tweaking the numbers, mainly adding or subtracting models from teams.

A premise: in my local gaming group, I rarely see more than 4 enemy vehicles on the table (luckily for me, I don't know what I'd do against a mech IG).

Fair enough, the advice i'll give you will work with that in mind. Mostly I'm going to be addressing your strategy first however, as that is a big part of WWP.

The idea is to start with 2 raiders, the 2 warrior teams, and the homuncoli on the table. I zip towards the enemy on turn 1 using the vehicles, disembark, run to cover if possible, or just open the portals. Turn 2, either open the portals (if not already done) or start shooting.

I think you're overlooking the advantage of the Raiders and the power of portals being placed right in the enemy's face. Here's how I'd do it;
Your two teams are fine - start them in the Raiders, yadda, yadda.
Turn 1 - Move one of the Raiders exactly as you described, and OPEN THE PORTAL THAT TURN. That way if any of your reserves arrive on Turn 2 (and they will) they aren't walking in from a board edge and instead come in roughly 26" forward - that's 2-3 turns of movement footslogging, and is huge.
The other Raider should NOT move 12" it should move 24" moving flat out.
Turn 2 - The 2nd Raider Moves 12" the Haemy and crew disembark and open a portal - that will give you a portal right in the middle of the enemy's forces pretty much wherever you want it. This is nasty, and when your Talos come rumbling through you can cackle in true DE fashion as the mighty Space Marines soil their chain mail undies.

Turn 3 - Profit and Slaves - huzzah!

Some considerations:
- The Archon goes with the Incubi (of course): I use them to crack open tough troops that the wyches can't handle, and go hero hunting in general. He can probably do without the ghostplate armor; it gives me psychological relief, but from experience I know that if the shadow field goes down, so will he, shortly thereafter.

I actually think Wyches are better tough troop hunters because they have 4++ saves whereas Incubi do not like being hit with power weapons.

HQ

Archon, 120
Agoniser
Shadow Field
Ghostplate Armor

You already mentioned my thoughts on Ghostplate + Shadowfield. I'd probably drop the Ghostplate and buy him Combat Drugs for the extra boost most of those results will give him.

2x Homunculus, 2x 100
WWP
Hexrifle

Fine for what you're using them for.

5 Incubi, 110

Fine.

2x 9 Kabalite Warriors, 2x 96
Blaster

I think you could save some points by dropping the Warrior squad down to 5 - there's really no point to the extra 4 bodies other than wasted points that could go somewhere else for more use.

Dedicated transports:
2x Raider, 2x 70
Nightshield

You're planning to rush these things forward and want Nightshields? I'd invest in Flickerfields or save the points and go with neither.

2x 8 Wyches, 2x 126
Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix with Agoniser

Like this.

Razorwing Jetfighter, 155
Nightshield

Wyches are good at anti-infantry.
Incubi are good at anti-infantry.
Archons are good at anti-infantry.
Hexrifles are good at anti-infantry.
Beastmasters are good at anti-infantry.
You are spending 155 points on something that your army already does well. I'd get a second Talos which is good vs. Infantry and Armor and will benefit from your WWP tactic - which the Razorwing does not.
The extra 50 points saved plus the odd 70 from the warrior squads could buy you something else awesome - like more Wyches, a 3rd Talos, the sky is the limit.

Talos Pain Engine, 100

Can't argue with this in WWP.

FAST ATTACK
3x Reaver, 78
1x Heat Lance

I consider the Blaster superior, but otherwise no issues. They do feel a little tacked on, I'd submit you'd be better served by a Ravager or even 5 Warriors in a Venom with a Blaster if you really want anti-armor fire power.

2x Beastmasters, 124
1x Clawed Fiend
5x Khymerae

No real issues. I would suggest Wyches would be superior to this unit, though I guess you really want the more mobile option?

Total 1471 pts - 29 points to play with.

Wooosh! Add that in with the odd 120 I've opened up above and you could definitely get some more Wyches or Beastmasters or whatever.
I would suggest you invest in a little something else to help hurt vehicles - at the moment you're 2 Lances on the Raiders - I don't count anything else because what you want is the vehicles already dead and infantry available when things start pouring out of that Webway. You want to be in assault ASAP. I'd probably start with a Ravager on the board - if you go first it ought to manage to at least rock an opposing vehicle. If you don't go first it gives your opponent something other than your precious WWP carriers to target with his long range firepower.

If it was me I'd drop the Razorwing and excess warriors and use the points to buy 2 Ravagers and switch the Beastmasters to Wyches - as more troop options would be very beneficial to you. I'd probably even switch the Incubi to Wyches as well - but I'm a little gay for Troop slots I'll admit.

Thor665 wrote:
I actually think Wyches are better tough troop hunters because they have 4++ saves whereas Incubi do not like being hit with power weapons.

True but there are not many troops out their with higher initative than 5 and lots of power weapons. Also Incubi have on more point in strength an weapon skill.

5 Incubi and an Archon charging into assault will do lots of damage. If some power weapons hit in return then put them on the Archon with the shadow field.

The Archon is an IC, you can't assign hits to the Incubi squad to an IC joined to them - he's a separate unit for purposes of the combat.

The Wyches swing first too. But the basic gist is this - if the enemy unit has a lot of power weapons and is some sort of elite combat threat, I want Wyches fighting it. Wyches who 50% of the time ignore the wounds of the power swords/klaws/et al. Wyches who can have special weapons that remove attacks from those expensive power weapon wielding guys, Wyches who can lock down the unit in a tarpit they can't escape for a few rounds - using my 150 point unit to lock down his 300 point Assault Termie unit is super tech and brilliant.

It's not a question of whether or not the Incubi could win, I'm sure they could, the queston is whether it's a good use of them and if I want to risk a 20+ point model or a 10+ point model with an invulnerable save fighting anything wielding a weapon that ignores armor.

Yea I don't know what I was thinking about the Archon ... thanks for the catch.

I guess it depends on your play style. The wyches certainly work well.

150 points is about 6 incubi with a Klaivex. Without doing the math, that unit charging terminators should take out at least 3 on average, 4 or 5 if you are lucky. I guess I prefer to kill things outright and then move on as opposed to tarpiting. Although I see your point, the return swings from lightning claws would hurt if more than one survived.

aggie0642 wrote:I prefer to kill things outright and then move on as opposed to tarpiting. Although I see your point, the return swings from lightning claws would hurt if more than one survived.

Except that Incubi don't kill Assault Termies outright much better than Wyches do - unless we're presuming the Assault Termies have no Storm Shields at all, which is strange. Also, the relative loss of Incubi is pricey - why should they have to risk themselves on something dangerous when the cheaper option can do almost as well with less casualties and the casualties are cheaper? Meanwhile the Incubi can do what they do best, which is eat up infantry in heavy armor who lack power weapons.

First of all thanks for the suggestions.

Thor665 wrote: I think you're overlooking the advantage of the Raiders and the power of portals being placed right in the enemy's face. Here's how I'd do it;
Your two teams are fine - start them in the Raiders, yadda, yadda.
Turn 1 - Move one of the Raiders exactly as you described, and OPEN THE PORTAL THAT TURN. That way if any of your reserves arrive on Turn 2 (and they will) they aren't walking in from a board edge and instead come in roughly 26" forward - that's 2-3 turns of movement footslogging, and is huge.
The other Raider should NOT move 12" it should move 24" moving flat out.
Turn 2 - The 2nd Raider Moves 12" the Haemy and crew disembark and open a portal - that will give you a portal right in the middle of the enemy's forces pretty much wherever you want it. This is nasty, and when your Talos come rumbling through you can cackle in true DE fashion as the mighty Space Marines soil their chain mail undies.

Turn 3 - Profit and Slaves - huzzah!

I'll certainly try that. I was mainly worried that by getting too close with portals, I'd risk having a smart opponent surround them with troops, in order to effectively prevent mine from using those entry points - expecially considering that in that case, only the Talos and the 3 reavers were able to come out and try to make space for the other reserves. However, if I open one portal 12" behind, I could just use that and bumrush the unit sitting on the other. I like your idea. In this optic, I might as well drop the Razorwing in favour of the second Talos as you suggested, since they can come in no matter what, and deliver punishment as appropriate.

I actually think Wyches are better tough troop hunters because they have 4++ saves whereas Incubi do not like being hit with power weapons.

Yes, I was merely saying that enemies that are hard to kill because of heavy armor, are not the wyches primary objectives (whereas they are sitting ducks for the incubi power weapons) - from experience, wyches just get swamped against heavy infantry, and then the opponent can pretty much remove them as he prefers.

I think you could save some points by dropping the Warrior squad down to 5 - there's really no point to the extra 4 bodies other than wasted points that could go somewhere else for more use.

It was mainly a gut feeling of mine of being low on bodies already. Let's see how they fit in the list below.

You're planning to rush these things forward and want Nightshields? I'd invest in Flickerfields or save the points and go with neither.

That's what I meant: Flickerfields for a 5+ invulnerable save; I just realized I mixed up those two names for months XD

I consider the Blaster superior, but otherwise no issues. They do feel a little tacked on, I'd submit you'd be better served by a Ravager or even 5 Warriors in a Venom with a Blaster if you really want anti-armor fire power.

I considered the Ravager, but at the time I was worried about seeing it blow up on turn 1, in the case the enemy went first. I'll proxy it with the razorwing and see how it goes.

I would suggest Wyches would be superior to [beastmasters], though I guess you really want the more mobile option?

Yes, it was mainly for the extra mobility, which I find useful when trying to reach vulnerable shooty units in the back of the enemy's army. They usually die quickly against the beasts, and then I can turn around and join the wyches.

So, to sum this up:



That gives me 52 bodies, 5 lances, plus various other anti-tank solutions, should the need arise, or in case a Talos is late and the enemy troops have already been assaulted.

I think after following Thors advice and your tank-light meta, your list looks good. At the very least it'll be fun, but I think it looks good and should do well and suit your play-style.

The only thing I'm unsure about is the Ravager; I think the haywire Grenades and odd blaster should serve you well against any tanks you come across, but I feel the ravager seems out of place. I would wonder about another talos/beasts/wyches instead of the ravager?

Otherwise, it looks solid.

This is how i would run it:

HQ
Archon - ShadowField, Agoniser (reserved)
Haemon - WWP
Haemon - WWP

Elite
5 Incubi (reserved) (archon's retinue)

Troops
8 Kabalites - Blaster, Raider (w/ WWP Haemon)
8 Kabalites - Blaster, Raider (w/ WWP Haemon)
8 Wyches - Haywires, Hekatrix, Agoniser (reserved)
8 Wyches - Haywires, Hekatrix, Agoniser (reserved)

Fast
2 BeastMaster - 5 Khymerae, 2 Razorwings (reserved)
2 BeastMaster - 5 Khymerae, 2 Razorwings (reserved)

Heavy
Ravager
Ravager
Talos - TL Liquifier, Extra CCW, TL Haywire (reserved)

You start with 4 Skimmers fielded, basically. If you go 2nd, place your skimmers 90 degrees almost falling from your table ledge and behind cover for extra protection. During your turn you move them sideways (as if drifting) and pivot them for some 2"-3" of extra ninja-movement, disembark and place WWP (bear in mind you just need to disembark with the naked Haemons, place the WWP right in front of them).

the WWPs are considered terrain, so they block line of sight, provide cover and all that good jazz, disembarking with the Haemons only helps you keep your troops alive (and its easier to hide him behind the portal than to hide a whole squad).

After that is just luck and careful choices.

Just Dave wrote:The only thing I'm unsure about is the Ravager; I think the haywire Grenades and odd blaster should serve you well against any tanks you come across, but I feel the ravager seems out of place.

Haywire Grenades are excellent versus vehicles that did not move the turn previous (by being stunned, or immobilized, et al)
Blasters and Lances are good at providing that setup.

The danger is that most players who have at least a few tournament ready brain cells have their vehicles move around a bit to help gak with stuff like Wyches w. Haywire grenades - that's the purpose of the extra lances and blasters, to allow the Haywires to definitely do their job.
Also, as noted, when stuff comes out of that WWP he'll want things to assault - if there is a nasty countercharge unit waiting safe inside a Landraider that is not an optimal thing, the more chances he has to blast open stuff like that the better in my opinion.