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A roll of '4' on the psychotroke grenade table results in a unit's leadership being reduced to 2.

Stubborn allows a unit to ignore any negative leadership modifiers when taking morale tests.

I can read psychotroke either as a leadership modifier subtracting from a unit's leadership score whatever number number is necessary to reduce it to 2 (in which case Stubborn trumps), or as an effect that changes a unit's leadership score (similar to Pariahs), in which case Stubborn wouldn't work.

It seems like it functions in a manner similar to the Pariah's 'Souless' rule. Both don't reduce Ld. to the respective numbers of 2 and 7, but rather make those Ld. values those numbers. Very similar but do to the wording of Stubborn it sounds like the Psychotroke rule wins out.

Really I think it all depends on the wording of the grenades. If it says it "reduces" the leadership to 2, then stubborn takes precedence. If it says it counts as having leadership 2, then it bypasses stubborn. It's all in the wording of the rule. As I don't have the codex in front of me at the moment, I'm not sure.

I voted stubborn, but it's based entirely on the way Sourclams worded how the grenade works.

A roll of '4' on the psychotroke grenade table results in a unit's leadership being reduced to 2.

If that is the case then clearly stubborn trumps the grenades.

sourclams wrote:A roll of '4' on the psychotroke grenade table results in a unit's leadership being reduced to 2.

Stubborn allows a unit to ignore any negative leadership modifiers when taking morale tests.

I can read psychotroke either as a leadership modifier subtracting from a unit's leadership score whatever number number is necessary to reduce it to 2 (in which case Stubborn trumps), or as an effect that changes a unit's leadership score (similar to Pariahs), in which case Stubborn wouldn't work.

Pg. 60 - Codex: Grey Knights: psykotroke grenades result 4 - The enemy unit is reduced to leadership 2 for the remainder of the assault phase.


My opinion: Psykotroke reduces their leadership value, it does not modify it because it specifies a set value(i.e. a unit is not -4 ld or -7ld) Thus the units value for determining stubborn is 2.

Does the grenade have a negative modifier or a set leadership value? Problem solved...

It states it reduces their leadership to 2, while under the PAriahs it states as they count as having leadership 7. I would vote for stubborn. IT is not giving them a new leadership, it is reducing their current Leadership, which means it is modifying it, at least IMHO. So Stubborn wins out.

Unfortunately people often Rule Psyker Battle Squads to work against Stubborn, it's certainly in the INAT FAQ. So I would expect people to be consistent with this and it means the Grenades trump Stubborn.

It's not called a modifier so Stubborn doesn't ignore it is the argument used in the case of PBS so similar here.

Not to hi-jack the thread at all, but in a similar vein, the Ork USR "Mob Rule" should also be trumped by psychotroke grenades correct, provided the wording of "counts as Leadership 2"?

Yes but it shouldn't affect Fearless status.

Aramoro wrote:Unfortunately people often Rule Psyker Battle Squads to work against Stubborn, it's certainly in the INAT FAQ. So I would expect people to be consistent with this and it means the Grenades trump Stubborn.

Just thought I'd point out that the INAT does not declare that Weaken Resolve works against Stubborn, it says the opposite.

IG.47D.02 – Q: Does 'Weaken Resolve' affect units
with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking
a morale test?
A: No it does not, as „Weaken Resolve. modifies the unit.s Ld
value (which „Stubborn. ignores during Morale tests)
[clarification].
Ref: DH.27.02, NEC.17A.01, TYR.59B.01, WH.30B.02

Oh they've reversed that one then, the INAT I have says the PBS trumps Stubborn. Well then I expect Stubborn to work as normal then.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Does the grenade have a negative modifier or a set leadership value? Problem solved...

A reduction is a negative modifier. It's certainly not a positive modifier. This is worded differently from the pariah entry.

It fits the definition of a modifier given in the BRB, so I would call it a modifier. It is certainly not setting the leadership to a fixed value such as the pariah rule, which sets your leadership to a constant set valu of 7

To nitpick, the pariah never changes leadership at all, the unit still has its unmodfied ld value, it just has to test on a different value. Similar to "is jump infantry" and "moves like jump infantry"

Aramoro wrote:Oh they've reversed that one then, the INAT I have says the PBS trumps Stubborn. Well then I expect Stubborn to work as normal then.

I'd have to go throught the various versions, but I believe that change was made over a year ago (before last year's Adepticon at least).

don_mondo wrote:

Aramoro wrote:Oh they've reversed that one then, the INAT I have says the PBS trumps Stubborn. Well then I expect Stubborn to work as normal then.

I'd have to go throught the various versions, but I believe that change was made over a year ago (before last year's Adepticon at least).

We don't use the INAT FAQ here so it's very likely I have a very old one as it's not relevant to use at all.