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Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




Habspire Aulton Court, Aberdeen

I have been seduced by the beauty of the models and decided after catching a glimpse of that playtest 'dex. Also, I have always wanted a halberd and suitably cool helm for my Vulkan counts-as.

Fortunately, when at my local GW's after-hours birthday party event-thing on Saturday, the manager was selling the 'Knights stuff as a sort of exclusive thing. I promptly brought myself some power armour and a Codex.

Rant proceeds thus:

After a good read of the Codex since, I must say I hate the writing!

I am normally very neutral about this sort of stuff - a perhaps related example is my belief in the nonexistence of .

I got used to Matt Ward and began to tolerate the excessively passionate language, verbose-yet-restricted vocabulary and using posh words wrongly to vague onomatopoeic effect in Space Marines.

In Blood Angels he strained the limits even farther, but again, cool models, nice list. It was Adrian Smith's artwork that my ire was directed at in that book.

But now, he's stretched it again and the threshold of hatred has been broken. Throughout the book, he keeps reminding us that the Imperium is doomed! I really hate this, as both a background element and just for the feel it establishes. Anyway, that is a minor note.

I don't know his position within the hierarchy of GW, but he has grown increasingly less subtle in the fact he clearly believes in GW's Spartan tactics ("give them nothing, but take from them EVERYTHING!").
He tells us as one point that Grey Knights Commanders prefer anywhere between three to seven Terminator squads, Purgation squads and Strike Squads in their strike force. "Only the most maverick commanders go against this." His reasoning is that it has been proven to be the best config'. Let's wait to see what tournament players say, for a start!
He tells us later in the page before the showcase section begins that you should resist "with all your might" getting loads of cheaper power armoured guys, and instead go for the bigger, more specialised (more financially expensive) units like Dreadknights, Land Raiders, Stormravens and Terminators.

Tonight Matthew, I am going to do whatever I want with my Grey Knights.

(...and every other night for that matter)

...rant concludes thus.

When the time comes, or for those who managed to get copies of the Codex early by whatever means, what are our thoughts? Or, what are the thoughs on the above rant?

Are you still to learn that the end and perfection of our victories is to avoid the vices and infirmities of those whom we subdue?

Reason well from the beginning and then there will never be any need to look back with confusion and doubt.

"I will break you." - Kaldor Drago


I am Blue/Green
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Meh. As far as I'm concerned, the fluff hasn't changed from the 3rd edition book. It's just a book of updated rules. Also, my suspension of disbelief isn't so brittle that it can't withstand things like the Jokearo and the Nemesis Dreadknight of Dready-Nemisisness.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






I haven't had a chance to read the fluff section of the book, but the army section looks tough as nails. I really want to see how deep striking Paladins with FnP are going to be dealt with. I also am eager to see if the Nemesis Dreadknight is going to be as over the top powerful as I think it will be.

edit: For the record, The Jokaero are fething stupid. I don't care how old their fluff is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 14:17:20


 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker





Meh. I am not at all surprised by this. GW is a money sucking pit. That they actually barely stop short of saying "time to whip out your credit card" is a credit to their restraint ;p

Does that mean I won't give the devil his due? Of course not. I like the games and am going to play them, however I will not buy their marketing hype and buy what the WD "battle reports" suggest is the latest and greatest.

As far as the marketing making it into the dex, well that's a logical extention of GW capitalizing on some players obsessive need to make every army fluffy.

Never count on rolling to save your ass. More often than not, average in tight situations runs far below average.  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Deepstriking FnP Paladins will be tough, but at over 400 points for a unit of 5 with psycannons, it's a huge whack of a 1500 point force.


Granted a Paladin saves 4+ from FnP, 5++ and 2+ which I think means failing 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/6 or 1 in every 18 (except from AP1 which would fail 1 in 3).

But they're then not going to be terribly mobile, so once they've destroyed their target and trounced anyone remaining withing charge range, they're going to be isolated unless a transport is ready to zoom in and pick them up or you have a vehicle-mobile Librarian who can summon them to where they're needed.


Choose an army you can love, even when it loses - Phil Barker
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Artemo wrote:Deepstriking FnP Paladins will be tough, but at over 400 points for a unit of 5 with psycannons, it's a huge whack of a 1500 point force.


Granted a Paladin saves 4+ from FnP, 5++ and 2+ which I think means failing 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/6 or 1 in every 18 (except from AP1 which would fail 1 in 3).

But they're then not going to be terribly mobile, so once they've destroyed their target and trounced anyone remaining withing charge range, they're going to be isolated unless a transport is ready to zoom in and pick them up or you have a vehicle-mobile Librarian who can summon them to where they're needed.


That'd be 1/12 failed armour/FNP per wound, 1/6 failed armour versus S8+ and 2/3 failed save versus AP2/1 as both Tx2 and AP2/1 negate FNP...

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Yes, you're quite right, my mistake, I forgot the FnP exemptions.

I'm tending to the view that 10 Purifiers are actually better for fewer points - more transport options and although they're distinctly more fragile once unloaded, they're probably rather more lethal and if they assault direct from a stormraven, they're protected from approach fire and can have a character along for support too.

Choose an army you can love, even when it loses - Phil Barker
 
   
Made in us
Dominar






I really can't see Paladins being worth their points. If there are absolutely 0 Missile Launchers or Lascannons in your meta (or their equiv), then Paladins can outsurvive basic Terminators. But beyond that, unless your sole consideration is maximizing the number of TA psycannons on the table, GKTs have more firepower with comparable performance in the assault against WS4 opponents. Against WS3 or WS5 opponents, GKTs actually out-assault Paladins by dint of more attacks.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I'd sort of come to that conclusion the long way round. The only real reason to take Paladins would be for FnP which adds a hefty premium to a 5 man squad, making it almost twice the cost of troop terminators. 2 x 5 GKT just seems more versatilefor a mere 25 points extra (or perhaps 50 or so extra with wargear equivalent).

Choose an army you can love, even when it loses - Phil Barker
 
   
Made in us
Dominar






Yeah the Paladin Apothecary is one of the biggest white elephants I've seen in a codex in awhile. He's not 'bad', necessarily, but the point sink is massive. If you take an Apothecary, you're incentivized to max out on the squad size, so min cost of 625, but more realistically 705 when you include psycannons. With 1/3 of your list sunk into that one unit already, you are then incentivized to take Draigo or a GM to at least make them scoring, which now puts you at 900-1000.

The options are seductive, but the point costs are crippling and they really don't synergize with anything else in the GK list. Ironically, it gets worse when you sacrifice squad size to get them into a transport of some kind. Very, very easy to have a thousand point Storm Raven or Land Raider floating about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 17:04:45


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Yes, because you really, really don't want two apothecaries, maxing out at 700+ is really where you end up going, almost as soon as you've chosen Paladins. And as you say, Draigo then becomes inevitable and 2/3 or 1/2 your total points are gone with just a single rather immobile troop choice.

That 1000 ish points could buy a stromraven, 10 purifiers, a dreadnought and Crowe to make the purifiers scoring and still have change for half a librarian to summon in a couple of GKT squads (and Crowe) - the other half-librarian being found from the spare points from the GKT's


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact 1500 pts buys

Librarian, stormraven, 10 purifiers (psycannons and falchions/hammers), dreadnought and 10 GKTs who can be kitted out fairly lavishly (falchions and psycannons)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/28 17:26:25


Choose an army you can love, even when it loses - Phil Barker
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

Unanything wrote:
He tells us as one point that Grey Knights Commanders prefer anywhere between three to seven Terminator squads, Purgation squads and Strike Squads in their strike force. "Only the most maverick commanders go against this." His reasoning is that it has been proven to be the best config'. Let's wait to see what tournament players say, for a start!
He tells us later in the page before the showcase section begins that you should resist "with all your might" getting loads of cheaper power armoured guys, and instead go for the bigger, more specialised (more financially expensive) units like Dreadknights, Land Raiders, Stormravens and Terminators.


The first bit is essentially the same sort of thing it says in the Space Marine codex, where each company is organized with 6 tac squads, 2 devastator squads, and 2 assault squads. It's nothing to direct ire towards. The second bit sounds strange, because the equivalent cost of two boxes of PAGK is going to be as many points and dollars together as any of the big kits, so it's just a non issue. It's just bad tactical advice is all.

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Made in ca
Boosting Black Templar Biker




Canada

Kinda scary to think about a 1500 point battle, and all you have to field is 20 models and a couple machines. I havn't looked at the new GK list yet, so they better be damn good, as in taking out 5-10 enemy troops for one of their own, if not more with horde armies.
Somehow I don't have much faith that 20 GK or even 30 will stand much of a chance vs 100+ ork boyz on foot, not including any mech options. Should be interesting to see how the new list competes! Seems like alot of people are really getting hyped up for GK, so could start seeing some competative lists pretty soon.


"Human bonding rituals often involve a great deal of talking, and dancing, and crying."

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

I can't wait to fight against GK so I can wipe their entire army off the table in one round of shooting from my Leman Russes.

Check out my Youtube channel!
 
   
Made in ca
Boosting Black Templar Biker




Canada

I can't wait to fight against GK so I can wipe their entire army off the table in one round of shooting from my Leman Russes.


This, I fear is what could be the outcome of many GK battles. I think they new GK look great and all, but it's sad to see a brand new dex released knowing that it could be doomed to fail from the start. Hopefully this won't be the case, but only time will tell I suppose.


"Human bonding rituals often involve a great deal of talking, and dancing, and crying."

 
   
Made in us
Ship's Officer






I agree with the thoughts on Paladins. They really have no place in a 1500 list unless you're running a one-trick-pony type of strategy. At 2k, they're somewhat serviceable, but I might take GKTs at that point (if I'm augmenting a TDA-less 1500 list). At 2.5k they might actually be worthwhile, or at least fun without crippling the rest of your army.

GKs, as far as I can tell, play pretty much the same as normal marines, but with some unit role mixing. For example, a 10-man GK squad with psycannons has reasonable shooting and good assault, even more so than tactical marines (who were originally supposed to be versatile). The drawback is you have very expensive units that die just as easily as normal marines, which means the army is a tad less forgiving than the other 5th ed marine codices.

Ask Not, Fear Not - (Gallery), ,

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Yeah! Who needs balanced rules when everyone can take giant stompy robots! Balanced rules are just for TFG WAAC players, and everyone hates them.

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Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




Kansas City

I'll drop 200 points on a Grand Master, or instead take Draigo and get T5, Eternal Warrior, a heavy flamer psychic attack, and better assault stats for 75 more points. A squad of paladins are a good selection for him. I'll run five so I can take psycannons, plus a narthecium for Feel No Pain (the point of paladins, IMO), and they score as well.

My Troops are 2 units of 10 Strike w/ 2 psycannons & psybolts in Rhinos. For Heavy Support a pair of Psy-AutoCannon Dreads. That's 1500 points. I still agree that you have 1/3 of your points tied up into 6 models, but it's a pretty durable 6 models. 428 MEQ bolter shots to kill the paladins off, or like 38 plasma shots. What's funny is the Psycannons are the most likely to kill a land raider.
   
Made in us
Dominar






Eugee wrote:I still agree that you have 1/3 of your points tied up into 6 models, but it's a pretty durable 6 models. 428 MEQ bolter shots to kill the paladins off, or like 38 plasma shots.


Durable, yes, but slow and with horrible force projection. The big thing for me is that they can't absorb the charge from 8 TH/SS Termies with anything close to reliability. Draigo doesn't have the super grenades, so 8 TH/SS termies should charge and lose about 3 guys, but kill off 3 of the opposing Paladins (if they have swords). That leaves the GKs at combat lost by 3 with a chance for a 600 point unit to run off the table. Same problem with the Paladins as have plagued Meganobz, only they're even more expensive.
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




Kansas City

Fair enough; granted that's not much different that saying "<insert whatever> will get killed in close combat by a 610 point unit dedicated to close combat," right?

I'm not disagreeing that they are a specialist unit; they are a powerful unit to pair your HQ with. I also agree that if you aren't going to take an apothecary, you're better off just taking the same points in regular GKTs.
   
Made in fr
Opportunist



La Rochelle

I don't really know why, each time I see the word "Paladin", I think "Imploding Missile", "Jezzail" or "Flesh Gauntlet".

Am I the only one to think that Grey Knights will struggle versus Dark Eldars ?

SkaerKrow wrote : "We killed our own gods. What chance do you have against us?"
Kurgash wrote: "Necrons, a dead race that is more dead than anyone else. So dead that they rebuild themselves just to die again!" 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




Habspire Aulton Court, Aberdeen

Matt Ward has pre-empted the whole outnumbering business, magnanimous given his otherwise severely finite wisdom. The Codex' response to hordes are Purifiers, Eversor Assassins, orbital strike relays, the more shooty vehicles (naturally) and all of the special weapons exclusively available to Grey Knights given that they all have fairly high rates of fire.

Are you still to learn that the end and perfection of our victories is to avoid the vices and infirmities of those whom we subdue?

Reason well from the beginning and then there will never be any need to look back with confusion and doubt.

"I will break you." - Kaldor Drago


I am Blue/Green
 
   
Made in it
Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator





Unanything wrote:Matt Ward has pre-empted the whole outnumbering business, magnanimous given his otherwise severely finite wisdom. The Codex' response to hordes are Purifiers, Eversor Assassins, orbital strike relays, the more shooty vehicles (naturally) and all of the special weapons exclusively available to Grey Knights given that they all have fairly high rates of fire.

They mostly have short range as well.
   
Made in br
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






Arkon wrote:Am I the only one to think that Grey Knights will struggle versus Dark Eldars ?


Foot lists may struggle a bit, but even the basic storm bolter GK's use is a threat to almost all DE vehicles, even more so if they take psybolt ammo for S5 assault2 bolters and S7 psycannons. Not to mention 4-shot S8 twin-linked rifledreads.

Exploding vehicles will likely kill more DE than everything else in a DE vs. GK match.

DE -can- perform very well against GKs, assuming passable dice rolls and an alpha strike. In fact, DE going second might as well reserve everything and try to do a piecemeal alpha strike as stuff arrives.

In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.

In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos. 
   
 
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