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I had a question regarding the gate of infinity power. Can a librarian cast gate from inside a razarback ?

Yes, as it does not require LOS, and therefore does not require a Fire point.

LOS is irrelevant, as weapons that do not require LOS do still require a fire point. But since Gate is not a shooting attack, I agree that it can be used from a transport.

I only mentioned the LOS thing because there are some non PSA powers(or other special rules) that do require LOS(Njal's Lord of Tempests for example)

thanks guys, how about when he and the squad he is with are in combat? Can you use gate to leave combat ?

Now that one is opening a can of worms. IMO, no, as it does not explicitly or implicitly grant permission to leave combat, either by saying it can (ala Veil of Darkness) or by saying what happens if you do so (ala Swooping Hawks). Others will say yes. So get ready for two or three pages of discussion....................

I have debated this one with Don Mondo before.

I say yes you can, there's no restriction in the BRB about being removed from the table from combat so you can do it.

Skyleap tells you what happens if you do it, it does not give permission.

Veil of Darkness is used 'instead of moving' so it must as you cannot move when locked in combat.

And now both points of view are represented, so quick, someone lock this thread!!

Aramoro wrote: Skyleap tells you what happens if you do it, it does not give permission.

Codex:Eldar, page 35 under Skyleap, "The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move."
Specific permission to use Skyleap to move out of close combat.

Aramoro wrote:Veil of Darkness is used 'instead of moving' so it must as you cannot move when locked in combat.

Codex:Necrons, page 15 under Veil of Darkness, "The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (the enemy models are left behind)."
Specific permission to use Veil of Darkness to move out of close combat.

No such specific permission exists for Gate of Infinity.
Therefore,you must refer back to the movement rules which prohibits units locked in combat from moving out of close combat, and so you cannot use GoI to move out of close combat.

time wizard wrote:

Aramoro wrote: Skyleap tells you what happens if you do it, it does not give permission.

Codex:Eldar, page 35 under Skyleap, "The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move."
Specific permission to use Skyleap to move out of close combat.

Specific permission? Are you sure. Please quote the section that says you may remove a unit in combat from the table. Just that section please.

time wizard wrote:

Aramoro wrote:Veil of Darkness is used 'instead of moving' so it must as you cannot move when locked in combat.

Codex:Necrons, page 15 under Veil of Darkness, "The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (the enemy models are left behind)."
Specific permission to use Veil of Darkness to move out of close combat.

As I said it needs specific permission as it's done instead of moving, a bit you handily forgot to quote.

time wizard wrote:
No such specific permission exists for Gate of Infinity.
Therefore,you must refer back to the movement rules which prohibits units locked in combat from moving out of close combat, and so you cannot use GoI to move out of close combat.

Show me a quote from the rules which says I cannot be removed from the table in Close Combat. Any quote will do. If you're thinking about quoting the rules on movement, show me where Gates of Infinity is movement.

Aramoro wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Aramoro wrote: Skyleap tells you what happens if you do it, it does not give permission.

Codex:Eldar, page 35 under Skyleap, "The player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve. If the squad was engaged in combat, the enemy may make a 3" consolidation move."
Specific permission to use Skyleap to move out of close combat.

Specific permission? Are you sure. Please quote the section that says you may remove a unit in combat from the table. Just that section please.

{HIGHLIGHTED IN RED ABOVE}

time wizard wrote:

Aramoro wrote: Veil of Darkness is used 'instead of moving' so it must as you cannot move when locked in combat.

Codex:Necrons, page 15 under Veil of Darkness, "The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (the enemy models are left behind)."
Specific permission to use Veil of Darkness to move out of close combat.

As I said it needs specific permission as it's done instead of moving, a bit you handily forgot to quote.

Please then refer to Codex:Necrons, Veil of Darkness, first sentence, "A Necron Lord can use a Veil of Darkness at the start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally."
Okay?

Aramoro wrote:Show me a quote from the rules which says I cannot be removed from the table in Close Combat. Any quote will do. If you're thinking about quoting the rules on movement, show me where Gates of Infinity is movement.

Not necessary. As has been brought up many times in the past, you need to show me the specific quote that says you can.
Show me a quote from the rules which says I cannot pick up one of your models and snap it in half. There isn't one. But the important thing is there is no rule that says I can. The rules give specific permission to perform actions.

Both Skyleap and Veil of Darkness allow units to be removed from close combat. Gate of Infinity does not.
And Gate of Infinity is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase using deep strike rules. And models arriving on the table via deep strike count as having moved in the previous movement phase.

Now I have nicely provided you with all manner of rules quotes and references. Kindly do the same to support your position.

remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase

so that is the Specific permission Skyleap has?

Sounds a lot like Gate to me

The Libaraian and any unit he is with are removed from the tabletop

Skyleap has NO specific permission to remove unit from the table, if you can find it then feel free to show me where.

Veil is instead of moving, so it needs the specific permission.

Gates of Infinity is not Movement, doesn't count as movement is not done instead of movement. I am allowed to use Psychic power in close combat. So I simply follow the rules on Gate and remove my unit from the tabletop. I don't need to show that I can specifically do it, because there's no reason that you would not be able to, you simply follow the rules.

Aramoro wrote:

remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase

Skyleap has NO specific permission to remove unit from the table, if you can find it then feel free to show me where.

Ummm... are you really wanting to say that??? It really looks to me that in plain English it says "remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, sounds like some pretty specific permission to me.

Aramoro wrote:Gates of Infinity is not Movement, doesn't count as movement is not done instead of movement. I am allowed to use Psychic power in close combat. So I simply follow the rules on Gate and remove my unit from the tabletop. I don't need to show that I can specifically do it, because there's no reason that you would not be able to, you simply follow the rules.

Actually, Gate of Infinity is movement, as they are removed and put back using Deep Strike rules, and if you read under the Deep Strike rules, it states that it counts as having moved, hence that would make it movement. Following those rules, since they count as moving, you can't take them out of combat unless given specific permission. And last but not least, as I have been told many, many times, the 40K ruleset is a permissive ruleset, which means you must show where you can do something, not that it doesn't say you can't.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention the fact that when you Deep Strike, you can move no further that turn, except of course running instead of shooting. Only other things that I know of that stops you from moving is going to ground, impassable terrain, if you want to shoot a heavy weapon and aren't relentless, vehicle damage charts 1 and 2 and 4 if your a vehicle, and if your locked in close combat. I am sure there are a few I'm missing that people will point out, but you get the gist of what I'm trying to point out.

Ummm... are you really wanting to say that??? It really looks to me that in plain English it says "remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, sounds like some pretty specific permission to me.

You mean remove them from the Table? Just like Gates of Infinity removes a unit from the Tabletop?

Actually, Gate of Infinity is movement, as they are removed and put back using Deep Strike rules, and if you read under the Deep Strike rules, it states that it counts as having moved, hence that would make it movement. Following those rules, since they count as moving, you can't take them out of combat unless given specific permission. And last but not least, as I have been told many, many times, the 40K ruleset is a permissive ruleset, which means you must show where you can do something, not that it doesn't say you can't.

Deep Striking counts as having moved, but it is not movement. Otherwise it would just call it movement, but it doesn't, it says the units count as having moved. That's all a side issue though because you get removed from the table first, then you deep strike. The permission required to do it is in the rule where you remove the unit from the tabletop, not remove an unengaged unit, not remove a unit not in assault no simply remove the unit.

Read my edit to my last post.

Also, you still didn't show me where it says you can remove them from close combat. As I said, its a permissive ruleset, so show me where it says you can. I can do all sorts of things that aren't in the book, and tell you that it doesn't say I can't do it, hence why the whole permissive ruleset issue comes in. So once again, show me where it says you can remove them, because the other two instances that have been shown about removing them from CC have both spceifically mentioned it.

Deepstrike tells you you cannot move any further. Making DS explicitly movement

To add, the ork weirdboy/warphead power "'ere we go" also give explicit permission to leave close combat.

Galador wrote:Read my edit to my last post.

Also, you still didn't show me where it says you can remove them from close combat. As I said, its a permissive ruleset, so show me where it says you can. I can do all sorts of things that aren't in the book, and tell you that it doesn't say I can't do it, hence why the whole permissive ruleset issue comes in. So once again, show me where it says you can remove them, because the other two instances that have been shown about removing them from CC have both spceifically mentioned it.

Show me where Skyleap give explicit permission to remove a unit from Combat then. It tells you what happens when you do, so the implication is you can always remove things from the table in combat. But it never gives you permission to.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deepstrike tells you you cannot move any further. Making DS explicitly movement

To my surprise, this is correct. You are free to pick up your models using gate of infinity, you just may not deep strike them during your movement phase because you were locked in assault (BRB pg. 11). As they are not placed in reserves you can't get them back later.
Swooping Hawks only work at all because they deep strike on their next turn, weird boyz work because because the shooting phase does not deny movement for units locked in assaults.

So RAW, you have found a very counter-intuitive loophole that allows you to remove models from the table.

Jidmah wrote:the shooting phase does not deny movement for units locked in assaults.

If that were true, then you could run in the shooting phase instead of firing and run out of close combat.

But page 40 of the BRB last sentence under 'Pile-In!' says that "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

Since running is done instead of shooting, and you cannot shoot, you cannot run.

Aramoro wrote:Show me where Skyleap give explicit permission to remove a unit from Combat then. It tells you what happens when you do, so the implication is you can always remove things from the table in combat. But it never gives you permission to.

Hmm, the whole "if the squad was engaged in combat" part certainly seems to tell me that you can remove it.

But ok, lets go with your line of reasoning here. Lets say you can remove it from the table, then place it back anywhere. After all it doesn't say you can't. so you remove your Librarian and whatever squad he was locked in combat with, then Deep Strike them back onto the table. Now then, at the beginning of that movement phase, which is when the power is used, your squad was locked in close combat, but you chose to use GOI. So what happens to your squad and mine??? Well then, lets take a look at the assault rules, shall we??

time wizard wrote:But page 40 of the BRB last sentence under 'Pile-In!' says that "While a unit is locked in combat it may only make pile-in moves and may not otherwise move or shoot."

So where is the permissions for the Librarian and his unit of what happens to both him and or the unit he was engaged in assault with??? There are none, so guess what?? Even though you used GoI, your still locked in assault with that unit!!so that means that you can't shoot with that unit, nor can any other unit of yours shoot at my unit and vice versa!!! So now what happens??? Well, according to the assault rules, neither of us could move or shoot during your movement or shooting phase, nor be shot at, and then when your assault phase comes, noone is in B2B or within 2" of someone who is within B2B, so there are no attacks in that assault, so we move right on to the end of that combat, and we both make our 6" pile in moves, right?? Nope!!! The only way that we would make Pile In moves is if our total 12" of pile in movements (6" for you and 6" for me) would bring us back into B2B, so its possible but unlikely, especially if your using GoI to try and run away from the combat you are losing or don't want to be in. So, if we can't pile in, we both get Consolidation moves of D6", and the combat is over!

So basically, if your Librarian, with lets say a Terminator Squad, wants to GoI out of an assault with my Wyches and Archon, feel free!!! Cause your still locked in combat with me, which means you can't shoot my wyches or Archon in your turn, which is the only time GoI can be used, and you can't shoot at anything else with that Librarian unit that turn, which helps me, and when the Assault phase comes, if we cant get back into B2B, I get a d6" consolidation movement, then its my turn and I get to shoot and charge that same unit again!!!! I change my stance on GoI in assault, feel free to use it whenever you want!!!! I will love it when you do cause it just makes you easier to kill!!!!

don_mondo covered it.