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Pretty straight forward topic. How are BT doing these days? Are they still able to do well against most forces? From what I understand, it sounds like they have some special rules that make them pretty hard to crack. Still a good choice for a marine army?

Thanks for any input!

Disclaimer - I am 100% biased!

Black Templars are a solid choice for anyone wanting to get into Space Marines. With the new FAQ that came out, they've discarded lots of their old disadvantages (such as 4++ storm sheilds, and non-assault land raiders). If you want to play competitively, running small squads with special weapons (you can take 2 in a 5 man squad) is an effective choice. My army is completely the opposite of this however, and is a force almost purely dedicated to close combat smashing.

I may spark a large revolt here, but IMO Black Templars are the best MEQ army when it comes to close combat. With army-wide preferred enemy, you can inflict some serious pain on any opponent. Take a unit of Assault terminators for example. Your TH/SS termies are as you expect (with the re-rolls to hit), but LC terminators are sadistic. Re-rolling to hit AND wound at S5 I5 is nothing to be sneered at.

The Emperor's champion is a compulsory choice, but for his points he is a close combat beast. You can also run blob crusader squads (half neophytes half initiates) for a black horde! You can also give these guys CCW for extra attacks, which can also be re-rolled!

I've barely scratched the surface here. I cannot recommend them highly enough - they are such a fun army to use, and they are far from cheesy - a complaint attributed to many MEQ armies currently around.

hmm sounds great. How does their model line run? I know there is sword brethern and the chapter update blister pack, but do you just use normal marines? I remember they had used to have some very specific BT models, but they dont have them on the GW website anymore

You can buy the Sword Brethern stuff as you say, as well as grimaldus and Helbrecht. You'd also need an Emperor's Champion, which you can also order online.

As for templar models, there's actually a templar upgrade pack you can buy:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400013&prodId=prod1060205

You can use these bits with a regular tactical squad to templar them up a bit. I'm planning to pick up some grey knights boxes so that I can mix them and templar stuff together to make some really interesting results.

Awesome man, thanks for the input! And im guessing the codex operates independantly away from the generic SM codex, correct?

liam0404 wrote:Disclaimer - I am 100% biased!

Black Templars are a solid choice for anyone wanting to get into Space Marines. With the new FAQ that came out, they've discarded lots of their old disadvantages (such as 4++ storm sheilds, and non-assault land raiders). If you want to play competitively, running small squads with special weapons (you can take 2 in a 5 man squad) is an effective choice. My army is completely the opposite of this however, and is a force almost purely dedicated to close combat smashing.

I may spark a large revolt here, but IMO Black Templars are the best MEQ army when it comes to close combat. With army-wide preferred enemy, you can inflict some serious pain on any opponent. Take a unit of Assault terminators for example. Your TH/SS termies are as you expect (with the re-rolls to hit), but LC terminators are sadistic. Re-rolling to hit AND wound at S5 I5 is nothing to be sneered at.

The Emperor's champion is a compulsory choice, but for his points he is a close combat beast. You can also run blob crusader squads (half neophytes half initiates) for a black horde! You can also give these guys CCW for extra attacks, which can also be re-rolled!

I've barely scratched the surface here. I cannot recommend them highly enough - they are such a fun army to use, and they are far from cheesy - a complaint attributed to many MEQ armies currently around.

Wow, sorry to intrude but i think you've convinced me to join the crusade

and i'm already struggling with IG and Dark Eldar

oh well, The Emperor calls and i obey.

Gorgarak wrote:Awesome man, thanks for the input! And im guessing the codex operates independantly away from the generic SM codex, correct?

Yes its a 100% standalone codex. Just make sure you hit the FAQ as well so you're fully up to speed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Harrab wrote:
Wow, sorry to intrude but i think you've convinced me to join the crusade

and i'm already struggling with IG and Dark Eldar

oh well, The Emperor calls and i obey.

Glad to hear it! Feel free to ask me anything you want about the boys in black.

right on. where do ya find this updated FAQ? I found a couple things by googling it, but on bolter and chainsword it is a bit more thorough. Is there a official GW one?

You can find all the FAQs here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

The upgrade pack has some really good bits, and for the champion you can easily build your own - I am. I don't like the GW models for him so I'm using with the company champion plastic model with the 2 handed Blood Angel sword (with the bolter cut off the arm).

LavuranGuard wrote:The upgrade pack has some really good bits, and for the champion you can easily build your own - I am. I don't like the GW models for him so I'm using with the company champion plastic model with the 2 handed Blood Angel sword (with the bolter cut off the arm).

Idea officialy stolen good thinking there mate.

I dunno this is all kinds of cool:


But if you insist here is some inspiration:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=5805

You know its funny how when people think of conversions, they think Orks. It's pretty crazy how many conversions you can really make with marines, and the great thing is it can really individualize your force, making it stand out even more so. Whenever I see a 'dead' model line, I try to see it as an oppurtunity to convert. Heck, some people who do conversions should design models over GW people.

Thanks all for the input btw!

I'm not a BT player and never will be but I have to concur, they are very, very, nasty. I'm surprised I don't see them more often, actually, the other chapters have some flash but BT squad options are unique and very killy.

As another 100% biased Black Templars player, I say GO FOR IT!

As has been mentioned, we're not "cheese", but we get REALLY cheap typhoon speeders and two cyclone missile launchers in a 5-man squad. Combine with tank hunters for hilarity!

Trying to upload my EC here but cant figure out how to get it from my desktop and onto this tread -.-

NVM that.. BT are very very fun to play and i highly recomend it

Also, you can have better vindicators than blood angels. For 155 points, you can move 12" and fire, or be stunned and still fire. Very tasty indeed.

Here is my list of The good stuff in the Black Templar book

1) Tactical Terminators. 5 guys, 2 TML, Tank hunters. this gives you a great shooting unit with 4 S9 shots against tanks, decent anti-infantry shooting power (10 bolter shots + 4 frag missles). You can move and shoot, have 2+ armor, and a decent counter attack if you need it.


2) Marshal. give him TDA, and 2x LC. you get a base of 3 attacks, then 1 more for your TDA, then another 1 for 2x LC, giving him a grand total of 5-6 attacks with re-roll to hit, and re-roll to wound at I5. Also, LD10 rites of battle is needed so you can pass your LD tests (both the priority tests for shooting and your morale tests as well)


3) Terminator command squad. Basically the same as the terminators, BUT they attach to your commander. They form a retinue so your commander does not need a pricy INV save. Again Tank hunters +2 guns, Assault Cannons might be a good choice here as you will be closer to the enemy, but a command squad has better combat power than the regular terminators.


4) Drop Pods. First off, your troops choices are not that great. Crusaders are decent, but not good enough to base an army around. You will want some of them to enter the game late and take objectives wherever they are on the board. Drop Pods are perfect for this. They are all in regular reserves, meaning there are fewer turn for the enemy to shoot your guys off of the table. Also, the deathwind is a great buy. It is cheap, it makes your pod a threat, AND it can fire on the turn it lands, helping your crusaders clear off an objective.


5) Another option for crusaders is the Las/Plas squad. 5 people, Lascanon, Plasma gun. It is cheap and perfect for holding a backfield objectives and taking a few pot shots at whatever they can see. If the enemy gets closer, unleash the plasma gun to whittle their numbers down, and you might beat them in combat as well.


6) Land Speeder Typhoons. 30 pts less than the space marine version, which is already considered a good deal. Fast enough to get side shots or to contest objectives, and you get either 2 S8 shots for tanks, or a Heavy bolter and 2 Frag shots whne you move 12".


7) Bikes. 3 bikes, 3 power weapons. the FAQ made it so you keep the bolt pistol and gain a PW so each member has 3 attacks on the charge. Use these guys like assassins, Take out small squads, devastators, or weakened units and you will be very happy with them.


8) Vindicator, PotMS, Extra Armor. So you get a vindicator that can move 12" and shoot AND ignores shaken and stunned resuls, (stunned becomes shaken, you can still fire the one gun while shaken). It combines the best aspects of a Blood Angel and a Chaos Space marine Vindicator. it is a little pricey but I think it is worth it. Take at least 2 if you are taking them.


9) Predator, Auto-las, PotMS. This one is nice as you can stay still and fire 2x S7 shots at one target and 2x S9 shots at another. Also you can move 6" and still fire 2x S9 shots at two targets. If you have other anti-transports shooting, take the vindicator. if you need more anti-transport shooting, take the Predator.


=========================


The black Templar have a surprising amount of shooting power, that is then backed up by a strong counter assault. There are a few potential builds here.

1) Heavy Tank shooting. vindicators, Tyhoons, and small troops in Pod, your only HQ is the Champion and you add dreads in higher pt games. This list is harder to scale up, but your tanks do not need to test on their LD to shoot at any targets. All of your shooting is effective while on the move, so going all reserves is not a bad option. You do not need the Marshal for the LD buff, and your min troops will come in later and take objectives.

2) Heavy Infantry Shooting. Marshal, Terminator Command squad, Tactical Terminators, Las/plas crusaders, bikes. This time you have most of your shooting on you infantry units. The list is slower, but hits harder in combat, especially as you can weaken the enemy squads with shooting quite a bit. The bikes add a bit of speed and can take out any threats or units hiding in the back of the board. You will hold objectives close to you, and rely on your terminators and bikes to contest the objectives far from you.


As is the case you can field a mix of these two lists as well.


I do not like an aggressive close combat build for the Templar. for a few reasons.
1) Your crusaders have to pay for Frag and Krak grenades, you need these for an agressive assault list, but not is you are mainly counter attacking.

2) You rely on Land Raiders to get across the board fast, but even though they are a bargain compared to Space Marine ones, it only takes a few melta shots to ruin your day.

3) The other option is big squads on foot. You are not orks, Your models are not cheap, not even the Neophites. You will be slow and shot to pieces.

4) Neophites DO NOT benefit from your re-rill to hit vow.

5) Most competitive lists are based around vehicles. You need to pop those transports and then eat the people inside of them.

I am also one of those biased Black Templars players, but I've been doing just fine with the BT in 5th Edition. And even better now than that we've got some updated rules. We've got a few very strong builds available to the BT, should you be willing to think outside the box.

If you're thinking about rejoining the crusade, feel free to peruse Implausible Nature. Might swing you in the right direction.

I prefer 20man crusader squads they are pretty sweet but you should be somewhat happy to run them any way you like

svendrex wrote:Terminator command squad. Basically the same as the terminators, BUT they attach to your commander. They form a retinue so your commander does not need a pricy INV save. Again Tank hunters +2 guns, Assault Cannons might be a good choice here as you will be closer to the enemy, but a command squad has better combat power than the regular terminators.

...except Black Templars command squads don't protect their ICs in CC...