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Hey guys,

I am at it again, Trying to make a mean as hell Dark Eldar List. I have enlisted the aid of a fellow dakka member Ketara, He gave me a outline that I am using to base my army from, I was wondering what you guys think of the list. I myself was thinking about maybe tossing in some hellions in the mix, as I have found a group of ten work wonders at knocking down Monster Creatures with their guns.

Vect

Haemonculus w/Webway portal, liquifier gun

Haemonculus w/Webway portal, liquifier gun

Haemonculus w/Webway portal, liquifier gun

5 Incubi w/klaivex, Demiklaives, Onslaught

5 Wracks w/liquifier gun
Raider w/night shields, flicker fields

5 Wracks w/liquifier gun
Raider w/night shields, flicker fields

5 Wracks w/liquifier gun
Raider w/night shields, flicker fields

10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser

10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser

Talos w/ additional combat weapon, twin linked heat lance

Talos w/ additional combat weapon, twin linked heat lance

Talos w/ additional combat weapon, twin linked heat lance

I am following Ketara's Webway portal Sathonyx method without Sathonyx in this list. Basically I am taking advanage of my resources here and hoping this works out. He is really a wonderful person to bounds ideas off.

Thank you for your time
Alaster

I wonder if 3 portals are too much. Wouldn't 2 work just as well?

This way I can place one on each side of the table so to give me the option of appear anywhere I need them to be and assault.

I would drop the heat lances on the talos, in general it seems a bit unfocused you have a ton of assault units like the talos, wracks and wyches but there are a few units that seem to have no purpose such as the 5 incubi and with the exarch, the raiders seem to be wasted on such small amounts of wracks. The biggest flaw however is the lack of effective anti vehicle, an experienced mech guard or marines player would be able to deal with your raiders and footsloggers while keeping his own troops hidden. I do like the 3 talos idea but the heat lance is not the right weapon for them.

The Night Stalker wrote:I would drop the heat lances on the talos, in general it seems a bit unfocused you have a ton of assault units like the talos, wracks and wyches but there are a few units that seem to have no purpose such as the 5 incubi and with the exarch, the raiders seem to be wasted on such small amounts of wracks. The biggest flaw however is the lack of effective anti vehicle, an experienced mech guard or marines player would be able to deal with your raiders and footsloggers while keeping his own troops hidden. I do like the 3 talos idea but the heat lance is not the right weapon for them.

Hooboy. Just to show why I advised Alastergrimm to construct his list this way, allow me to thoroughly break down, deconstruct, and show how utterly ridiculous this advice is.

The Night Stalker wrote:I would drop the heat lances on the talos, in general it seems a bit unfocused you have a ton of assault units like the talos, wracks and wyches but there are a few units that seem to have no purpose such as the 5 incubi and with the exarch

They are assault units. In a Webway list. Pray tell, how is that unfocused? I'm not going to say it was the best possible choice to have taken, but given a list of the units Alastergrimm possessed, I advised for the most efficient use of points he could make in the best possible combination. Incubi are there to chop through Infantry. That is their role, and they're damn cost effective and good at it. Where does the 'unfocused' part come into it?

The Night Stalker wrote: The raiders seem to be wasted on such small amounts of wracks

This is because whilst you could cram units of 4 into a Venom along with a Haemonculus, upping the unit to 5 allows you to take a second liquifier gun in the squad, and add a Dark Lance to the army, to provide extra anti-tank. There is no need to take Venoms for anti-infantry, because the army is capable of chopping up infantry in combat. Having two liquifier guns also increases the odds that the Wrack squad can tear apart an enemy squad, and transforms into a more effective assault unit. However, taking more Wracks then this would be focusing too many points on the Webway delivery system, and not enough on what comes out of them. Comprende?

The Night Stalker wrote:. The biggest flaw however is the lack of effective anti vehicle, an experienced mech guard or marines player would be able to deal with your raiders and footsloggers while keeping his own troops hidden.

There are, in this list, 20 Wyches kitted out with haywire grenades, three heat lances on the Talos, 3 Dark Lances on the Raiders, the Talos's combat capabilities to nail vehicles at strength 7 on rear armour 10, and at a pinch, the wrack squads with two pain tokens, which means they can strike at Strength 4 on rear armour 10 on the charge. I concede, this list may have difficulty with Guard parking lots. However, this list should be capable of dealing efficiently with anything short of a Guard parking lot.

And to be frank, just about any DE list struggles with Guard parking lots. Telling a Dark Eldar player they're going to have trouble with them at this stage of the game is like telling a Space Marine he doesn't want to fail his armour save.

And I'm not too sure what you mean about 'keeping troops hidden'. What does this even mean? If you were familiar with the operational concepts of a Webway list, you'd realise that 3 Raiders are deployed on the table at the start with Haemonculi and bodyguards in at the edge of your deployment zone sideways. One unit can then move 12", pivot the transport for another inch, deploy 2" and activate a 3" template in front of it. Any units then emerging, can move six more inches, and assault six more. If they have Fleet, like the wyches and incubi, that's another potential six inches tacked on. The other two Raiders move flat out (24") and get ready to drop webway portals in the following turn. In other words, you can't exactly 'hide' units from it.

The Night Stalker wrote:
I do like the 3 talos idea but the heat lance is not the right weapon for them.

The Heat Lance is an excellent choice for Talos in a webway list, because with the aforementioned movement capabilities, means that your Talos, presuming it emerges from your first portal, will by its shooting phase, be approximately thirty inches across the board, with a nine inch range for melta effect. And this is worst case scenario. If it emerges on Turns 3+, it'll be coming out of your other portals, and be in even closer.

Stinger Pods and Liquifier Guns are Anti-Infantry weapons, when we need anti-tank, and Haywire Blasters do not give you the odds you need of being able to shoot a vehicle, destroy it, and then charge the contents. So, pray tell, what exactly would be the 'right' weapon?


From the advice you gave, I can conclude you know nothing about building Webway Portal lists, and your concepts of playing with Dark Eldar are limited as well (I mean, troops 'hiding' from webway portals? Really? And heat lances on Talos being bad? )

You'll note Shenra questioned whether 3 portals were necessary. That particular choice is a matter of personal taste, and thus Shenra's comment was relevant, and good thinking.

I have to agree that its not enough antitank in that list iam having a hard sometimes at 2k with 22 darklight weapons to get everything opened when and where i need to. I also run 4 units of wyches with haywire but those arent that effective at the antitank duty anyway. Why no baron? he would be a great addition to this list cause a webway list needs to go first to be effective. Those wyches dont need PGL either they have assult grenades already.

Yeah this list looks very flawed if it does go first. Killing 3 AV10 open topped vehicles in 1 turn of shooting/assaulting for a 2k army is easy to say the least. Soi you won't be anywhere near the enemy when you come out of the WWP you'll be coming on from your own board edge. Likewise the 2 that plan to dorp in turn 2 are unlikely to be alive by then to drop them.

If you do go first people will ignore the squad that has already dropped and concentrate on the 2 AV10 vehicles and then their contents. But having 3 WWPs does give you redundancy but I can see you ever getting to drop all 3 against any remotely competant player and list even if you go first. And I can't see you dropping any further forward than you can walk if you go 2nd.

You are very low on anti-tank and I'm not convinced on 3+ save MCs in the current poison heavy world of 40k.

If your worried about your cardboard boxes getting shot down on the first turn, either put them in cover, or exchange the nightshields for retro fire jet and something else.

Wyches with haywire grenades are awesome at anti-tank. but if you dont have a pain token, pray that the vehicle doenst explode

Alastergrimm wrote:10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser
10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser

Given that few in their right mind will assault wyches, I think you could save points and drop the PGLs, odds are your girls are going to clobber them at Init6 anyway.

Most MEqs are going to Rapid Fire their bolters and be unable to assault, thus the PGL will go unused.

I'm unfamiliar with the rest of your WWP build (that is, I haven't used Wracks, Talos and the WWP; I've started playing a Wyche-Flying Circus), so I dunno what to recommend to spend the points on. Blast Pistols for the Hekatrixes perhaps?

FlingitNow wrote:Yeah this list looks very flawed if it does go first. Killing 3 AV10 open topped vehicles in 1 turn of shooting/assaulting for a 2k army is easy to say the least. Soi you won't be anywhere near the enemy when you come out of the WWP you'll be coming on from your own board edge. Likewise the 2 that plan to dorp in turn 2 are unlikely to be alive by then to drop them.

My friend, that's where that little thing known as player skill comes into action. If you're smart, you won't be lining all three up in front of your opponents las-predator with 'shoot me' signs. If you won first turn, great, set up on the line as close as possible. If you won second, deploy behind whatever cover is available before moving two of them flat out, and dropping and activating a single portal. Having three portals gives you some slight flexibility as well, even if you lose one, or two, you have the third to fall back on. You have the option of refused flanking an opponent. Also, even if a raider is shot down, with toughness 4 and feel no pain, the squad itself should survive, and have the capacity of a six inch move before dropping a portal.

It all comes down to player skill ultimately. This list will not go toe to toe with the best top tier tournament lists out there, but played correctly and well, should more than hold its ground against most opponents.

If you do go first people will ignore the squad that has already dropped and concentrate on the 2 AV10 vehicles and then their contents. But having 3 WWPs does give you redundancy but I can see you ever getting to drop all 3 against any remotely competant player and list even if you go first. And I can't see you dropping any further forward than you can walk if you go 2nd.

The other two vehichles will have moved flat out, garnering a 3 + cover save. And again, even if shot down, you then have to disentegrate an entire squad with feel no pain and toughness 4, who wiull have the option of being placed behind the wreckage of their vehicle/in the crater the vehicle leaves behind. Feasible, but easier said then done.

You are very low on anti-tank and I'm not convinced on 3+ save MCs in the current poison heavy world of 40k.

Poison heavy? Extrapolation?

The Crusader Of 42 wrote:If your worried about your cardboard boxes getting shot down on the first turn, either put them in cover, or exchange the nightshields for retro fire jet and something else.

Wyches with haywire grenades are awesome at anti-tank. but if you dont have a pain token, pray that the vehicle doenst explode

Unfortunately, retrofire jets as useless for the webway method, as you cannot deploy the turn you drop, and you need to be outside a vehicle to use a webway. The Sliscus method does alleviate this, however the OP is making use of Vect in the hope of greater odds of seizing the initiative instead, so there are no spare HQ slots.

Brothererekose wrote:

Alastergrimm wrote:10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser
10 Wyches w/ 2 Shardnet and Impaler, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Agoniser

Given that few in their right mind will assault wyches, I think you could save points and drop the PGLs, odds are your girls are going to clobber them at Init6 anyway.

Most MEqs are going to Rapid Fire their bolters and be unable to assault, thus the PGL will go unused.

I'm unfamiliar with the rest of your WWP build (that is, I haven't used Wracks, Talos and the WWP; I've started playing a Wyche-Flying Circus), so I dunno what to recommend to spend the points on. Blast Pistols for the Hekatrixes perhaps?

A pertinent point on the Phantasm grenade launchers, and definitely something to consider. Possibly give the Klaivex Demi-klaives, or add a couple more wyches?

I would be interested in hearing out Dash of Pepper's take on the list as well. Alot of you got interesting idea and takes on this, but I still haven't seen much proof that it is a bad list. I am still in agreement with Ketara. The only major changes I would maybe do is try to scrap up some more pops for Incubi.

My friend, that's where that little thing known as player skill comes into action. If you're smart, you won't be lining all three up in front of your opponents las-predator with 'shoot me' signs. If you won first turn, great, set up on the line as close as possible. If you won second, deploy behind whatever cover is available before moving two of them flat out, and dropping and activating a single portal. Having three portals gives you some slight flexibility as well, even if you lose one, or two, you have the third to fall back on. You have the option of refused flanking an opponent. Also, even if a raider is shot down, with toughness 4 and feel no pain, the squad itself should survive, and have the capacity of a six inch move before dropping a portal.

It all comes down to player skill ultimately.

The last line is exactly right if your opponent has any going 2nd bones you. Deploying behind cover doesn't help you against assaulters and won't keep you alive against any army with decent AT firepower (i.e. any almost competitive army).

The other two vehichles will have moved flat out, garnering a 3 + cover save. And again, even if shot down, you then have to disentegrate an entire squad with feel no pain and toughness 4, who wiull have the option of being placed behind the wreckage of their vehicle/in the crater the vehicle leaves behind. Feasible, but easier said then done.

It's a 4+ coversave and whilst you are T4 and FnP you have no armour save so effectively become a 4+ save that isn't removed by AP3 or 4. It depends on the exact situation and army you're up against Most armies have some CC element and if you're turbo boosting to drop the WWP near the enemy lines you're likely to be in assault range, and certainly rapidfire and flamer range...

Poison heavy? Extrapolation?

SMs can (and often do) spam sternguard all with poisoned ammo. Nids will have poison most places. Other DE have Poison everywhere. And whilst the New GKs don't have poison they have psycannons and Psyautocannons everywhere which will again chew through 3+ save MCs very quickly (not to mention their instant death, I6 power weapons...) MCs just aren't a problem for many people to deal with anymore. Having 3 does mitigate this issue, particularly if you can get them into combat the turn they arrive.

They're not an awful choice just feel that other choices are better. Beastmasters and Hellions both work excellently in WWP lists. Whilst Ravagers for me are the starting point of every build even a WWP one. Giving you a couple of turns of can oppening before your CC units arrive.

FlingitNow wrote:
The last line is exactly right if your opponent has any going 2nd bones you. Deploying behind cover doesn't help you against assaulters and won't keep you alive against any army with decent AT firepower (i.e. any almost competitive army).

I simply don't understand your first sentence there grammatically.

Secondly, You'll note this army does actually include Vect, giving it a better chance of going first than most armies.

Thirdly, deploying behind cover on turn 1 does excellently against assaulters, because there are very, very few enemy combat troops capable of going the entire way into your combat zone and charging you on turn 1. There's what, descent of angels?

Fourth, sure, this army won't do amazingly against any army with large amounts of long range anti-tank, when it goes second. Sure. Whatever. I've conceded that. And as I've already said, just about any DE list suffers that problem. It ain't anything new. And this isn't designed to be an uber-competitive list. As I've already said. You're kind of belabouring the point now.

It's a 4+ coversave and whilst you are T4 and FnP you have no armour save so effectively become a 4+ save that isn't removed by AP3 or 4. It depends on the exact situation and army you're up against Most armies have some CC element and if you're turbo boosting to drop the WWP near the enemy lines you're likely to be in assault range, and certainly rapidfire and flamer range...

Sure. You might lose a portal or two. That's why there are three. Hedging your bets, y'know?

I mean, you can sit here and play this game of , 'Yeah, I can do this,', 'Nuh-uh, 'cause then this might happen', 'but not if I take this', 'but not if the other guy does that', all day. I have no interest in it however. An actual game of 40K includes you risking losing your little model men. That's why when you put your army down on the table, you try and figure out the best possible strategy to take that time around, that minimises that risk. If there's a Hellhound, how stupid would I have to be to full out a raider in front of it, or anywhere within range?

If you're stupid enough to do things like that, you get what you ask for, whatever list you happen to be playing. And I'm afraid amount of list building or internet debate can account for someone not playing very well.

So yes! This list is vulnerable to human stupidity! This is very much a flaw!

SMs can (and often do) spam sternguard all with poisoned ammo. Nids will have poison most places. Other DE have Poison everywhere. And whilst the New GKs don't have poison they have psycannons and Psyautocannons everywhere which will again chew through 3+ save MCs very quickly (not to mention their instant death, I6 power weapons...) MCs just aren't a problem for many people to deal with anymore. Having 3 does mitigate this issue, particularly if you can get them into combat the turn they arrive.

Sure. More tit for tat. But most armies spam lots of anti-tank weaponry too! And far more use anti-tank weaponry then they do poison weaponry! Surely we should never take tanks then?

They're not an awful choice just feel that other choices are better. Beastmasters and Hellions both work excellently in WWP lists. Whilst Ravagers for me are the starting point of every build even a WWP one. Giving you a couple of turns of can oppening before your CC units arrive.

*blinks* Did you just, in the same turn, tell me Talos are bad in Webway Lists, and Hellions really good?

I believe that sums up my contributions to this thread. I am once again reminded why I don't step into the army list or tactics sections.....

I simply don't understand your first sentence there grammatically.

Secondly, You'll note this army does actually include Vect, giving it a better chance of going first than most armies.

Thirdly, deploying behind cover on turn 1 does excellently against assaulters, because there are very, very few enemy combat troops capable of going the entire way into your combat zone and charging you on turn 1. There's what, descent of angels?

Fourth, sure, this army won't do amazingly against any army with large amounts of long range anti-tank, when it goes second. Sure. Whatever. I've conceded that. And as I've already said, just about any DE list suffers that problem. It ain't anything new. And this isn't designed to be an uber-competitive list. As I've already said. You're kind of belabouring the point now.

Descent of angels can't assault in turn 1 you've picked pretty much the only 5 Ed codex that can't effectively assault in turn 1 as an example of one that can...

Most SM builds will be able to get powerfists into assauult with 1 wherever you deploy as will most Ork builds and a decent amount of Grey Knight builds. IG can do it but won't but they will have enough ranged AT to nail your army.

You do have a point though Vect means you'll go first about 75% of the time.

I mean, you can sit here and play this game of , 'Yeah, I can do this,', 'Nuh-uh, 'cause then this might happen', 'but not if I take this', 'but not if the other guy does that', all day. I have no interest in it however. An actual game of 40K includes you risking losing your little model men. That's why when you put your army down on the table, you try and figure out the best possible strategy to take that time around, that minimises that risk. If there's a Hellhound, how stupid would I have to be to full out a raider in front of it, or anywhere within range?

If you're stupid enough to do things like that, you get what you ask for, whatever list you happen to be playing. And I'm afraid amount of list building or internet debate can account for someone not playing very well.

This is your issue you seem to think that you'll always go first (because the army effectively concedes if it goes 2nd). That you'll happily concede to any army with decent firepower (so wolves, IG, SMs, GKs) and that is not a reason to try to improve the list. Granted some of the issues are inherent to WWP lists but personally I believe the Harlequins are a far better delivery system for a WWP than Raiders. I also feel that WWP really struggles at over 1500 as thats when what you're facing will always have decent ranged AT and/or fast/deepstriking flamers/meltas/assaulters which cause you such problems when you go 2nd.

3 Raiders at 2k just aren't going to survive a turn of shooting ever. And thats your issue. The first WWP you drop is likely to be the only one you drop even if you go first and then out of the portal you have slow units that should be easy to avoid as you've got a max 18" threat range from the portal, mostly will be somewhere about 12"-15" due to running and terrain. Then you're just feeding your army into his guns peice by peice.

if you ever did drop all 3 portals or even 2 then yes this list would be brutal. But by that time you're already playing someone ill equipped to deal with any decent list so should nail him anyway...

FlingitNow wrote:
Most SM builds will be able to get powerfists into assauult with 1 wherever you deploy as will most Ork builds and a decent amount of Grey Knight builds. IG can do it but won't but they will have enough ranged AT to nail your army.

That really depends upon what kind of deployment setup we have going here. I'm considering the bog standard 'up to 12" on your side of the board'. If we're considering other deployment types, then you have the possibility of deploying your Raiders further back, hugging cover, and so on, and still being able to drop a webway in a good position the following turn.

Once again though, this all entirely relies upon the scenario and army being played, which means that everything is highly variable and down to player skill ultimately.

This is your issue you seem to think that you'll always go first (because the army effectively concedes if it goes 2nd).

Not really. I'm just pointing out that all of your objections seem to be based upon, 'well what if the other guy has this?' to which I can respond, 'Ah, but I can do that, and by the way, you need to clarify why I also can't do x, y and z in the same scenario'.

Your criticisms seem based upon an infinite succession of batman v superman arguments. Which doesn't help much. You'll note when the chap above mentioned about the Phantasms, I noted that as being a useful point and postulated alternatives. Your criticisms lend no such help advice other than, 'play a different army!'.

That you'll happily concede to any army with decent firepower (so wolves, IG, SMs, GKs) and that is not a reason to try to improve the list.

Sure. Make some constructive suggestions within the framework we're being forced to work with and I'll discuss them with you. You've yet to do that though.

Granted some of the issues are inherent to WWP lists but personally I believe the Harlequins are a far better delivery system for a WWP than Raiders.

........Sure. But

a) the OP has no Harlequins to use.
b) Harlequins are also open to counter-attack, long range fire, and the myriad of other things you pointed out above, whilst lacking high speed movement to get that first portal as far ahead on Turn 1 as possible.

Debating the pros and cons of a single unit of them with a Veil of Tears and a Haemie, with the other two in Raiders....hmmm, I could see that. 3 squads of harlequins though? My God, they'd never get near to the enemy fast enough, and the portals would be too far back to be of any use to units emerging on turn 2.

I also feel that WWP really struggles at over 1500 as thats when what you're facing will always have decent ranged AT and/or fast/deepstriking flamers/meltas/assaulters which cause you such problems when you go 2nd.

I agree it has more difficulties. I think this is compensated for by taking multiple portals though, which would be unaffordable in lower points games. I don't think it really becomes a major issue until you hit 2000 points plus.

3 Raiders at 2k just aren't going to survive a turn of shooting ever.

Not even if the opposing army is solely a combat army?

Seriously, you need to cut out the absolutes here. You need to realise that there are so many variables involved in a game of 40K, that arguing batman v superman is utterly counter-productive.

The first WWP you drop is likely to be the only one you drop even if you go first and then out of the portal you have slow units that should be easy to avoid as you've got a max 18" threat range from the portal, mostly will be somewhere about 12"-15" due to running and terrain. Then you're just feeding your army into his guns peice by peice.

You're assuming:-

a) The other guy has a lot of guns.
b) that the webway portal will be dropped somewhere where the emerging units will have nothing in charge range, and
c) the other army is fast enough to get everything away from your army, and outrun you, whilst simultaneously shooting you.

if you ever did drop all 3 portals or even 2 then yes this list would be brutal. But by that time you're already playing someone ill equipped to deal with any decent list so should nail him anyway...

'rabblerabbleifyoubeatsomeonewiththislisttheysuckanyway!'

I believe that summarises that statement?

That really depends upon what kind of deployment setup we have going here. I'm considering the bog standard 'up to 12" on your side of the board'. If we're considering other deployment types, then you have the possibility of deploying your Raiders further back, hugging cover, and so on, and still being able to drop a webway in a good position the following turn.

Once again though, this all entirely relies upon the scenario and army being played, which means that everything is highly variable and down to player skill ultimately.

? With turn 1 assault ranges of between 42" and 51" from the point of deployment (depending on army and unit selected) I don't see where you;re going to deploy to avoid them.

You're assuming:-

a) The other guy has a lot of guns.
b) that the webway portal will be dropped somewhere where the emerging units will have nothing in charge range, and
c) the other army is fast enough to get everything away from your army, and outrun you, whilst simultaneously shooting you.

a) Most armies do.
b) a) causes this when mixed with your relatively slow units arriving from the portal.
c) He won't have to move that many units very far due to a) and b).

FlingitNow wrote:

That really depends upon what kind of deployment setup we have going here. I'm considering the bog standard 'up to 12" on your side of the board'. If we're considering other deployment types, then you have the possibility of deploying your Raiders further back, hugging cover, and so on, and still being able to drop a webway in a good position the following turn.

Once again though, this all entirely relies upon the scenario and army being played, which means that everything is highly variable and down to player skill ultimately.

? With turn 1 assault ranges of between 42" and 51" from the point of deployment (depending on army and unit selected) I don't see where you;re going to deploy to avoid them.

51 inch assault ranges? Please, go into detail here. I'm genuinely intrigued to hear how a single unit can move 51 inches across the board in one turn. And then once you've shown me how to do it with one unit, show me how to do it with four more. From different armies.

I'll concede then that clearly Turn 1 assault is a massive problem. I'll also wonder why as one of the fastest armies, DE can't move their assault units 51 inches.

You're assuming:-

a) The other guy has a lot of guns.
b) that the webway portal will be dropped somewhere where the emerging units will have nothing in charge range, and
c) the other army is fast enough to get everything away from your army, and outrun you, whilst simultaneously shooting you.

a) Most armies do.
b) a) causes this when mixed with your relatively slow units arriving from the portal.
c) He won't have to move that many units very far due to a) and b).

a) except assault armies.And ones that mix between shooting and assult. Please stop this line of argument with absolutes, its quite tedious.
b) Wait...wut? The other guy having a lot of guns causes my men to be out of assault range? That doesn't even make sense!
c) So......He won't have to move his units very far because his units firepower makes your units not be able to deploy close enough to assault from a webway....? What?

I think that's it, I'm actually out. I can't be bothered with this level of nonsense.

51 inch assault ranges? Please, go into detail here. I'm genuinely intrigued to hear how a single unit can move 51 inches across the board in one turn. And then once you've shown me how to do it with one unit, show me how to do it with four more. From different armies.

I'll concede then that clearly Turn 1 assault is a massive problem. I'll also wonder why as one of the fastest armies, DE can't move their assault units 51 inches.

Land speeder Storm with scouts in a shrike build can move 51" total for a first turn assault. In a non-shrike build it's 45" still enough to get you. Dreadknights and interceptors can get 48" across the board in turn 1. Deffkopters 42". Anything in a Valkyrie can get 39". DE aren't that fast really. SMs are by far the fastest army as they can literally assault you with their entire army turn 1 should they wish (not say that it would be a good build or idea but possible).

a) except assault armies.And ones that mix between shooting and assult. Please stop this line of argument with absolutes, its quite tedious.
b) Wait...wut? The other guy having a lot of guns causes my men to be out of assault range? That doesn't even make sense!
c) So......He won't have to move his units very far because his units firepower makes your units not be able to deploy close enough to assault from a webway....? What?

a) yes an all assault army wouldn't necessarily have lots of fire power but plenty do (DE and BA Razor spam instantly spring to mind). Certainly any balanced army should have plenty of ranged AT.
b) Yes if your WWP is dropped in your deployment zone because all your raiders got wrecked because of a). How are you not getting that? The firepower you face that causes you to either not drop youur WWP or to drop it about 15" from your deployment point is what menas it won't be positioned in a good place to assault the enemy army.
c) Which mens he might not have to move his units at all or many of them very far because you've only 1 WWP dropped and that was dropped 15" from your starting point...

I hate to say this, but this list seems extremely poor. In fact, I suspect I could easily take it with a 1,500 point list. You lack any reliable method of killing vehicles at all and will likely not be able to get charges out of your portals since a mobile opponent, since you lack speed as well. Three AV 10 open-topped vehicles with one weapon each comprise your list's entire set of anti-tank firepower, and you don't have reliable delivery mechanisms versus infantry either. The only units that I would have to worry about against this list are the three MCs, but since I can easily allocate all my anti-tank firepower to taking them out, I don't see them having much of an effect either.

Overall I think you have neither the bodies nor the speed to make this list work. If you're dead-set on going WWP, I suggest some Beastmaster units or Hellion squads, which should mitigate your lack of ability to close with the enemy.

Seems.... Different.

A couple questions.

What's getting left behind? The incubi, wyches and taloses?

Which leaves the haemonculis in the wrack units speeding towards the other board edge?

Seems like a risky game, to be honest. Getting those WWPs down by T2 (where at least 2 units are guaranteed to come in) seems pretty hard. This forces those units to come in from the board edge, which isn't good at all.....

Maybe I'm missing something about disembarking though? Can you get out after moving 24" ?

I just feel I should state here(as I realise its only been implied) that the OP has a certain number of units in his possesion, and wants to make use of as many of them as possible, so as to minimise the cost of buying more stuff.
Hence the list is not designed to be what I would consider optimum, but making the best of what the OP already owns.

Samus, you can generally have a single portal down close enough to the opposition to have units wih a decent range for assault on Turn 2 as they emerge. 12" of movement plus an inch rotation plus two inches deployment, plus, the three inches the portal takes up, plus six inches for the unit to move on, plus six inches for assault, plus whatever they may get for fleet as well....Well, it adds up.

Samus, you can generally have a single portal down close enough to the opposition to have units wih a decent range for assault on Turn 2 as they emerge. 12" of movement plus an inch rotation plus two inches deployment, plus, the three inches the portal takes up, plus six inches for the unit to move on, plus six inches for assault, plus whatever they may get for fleet as well....Well, it adds up.

Yes but you're only getting that if you go first and if you go first your opponent sees where you raiders are and deploys as far away from them as possible...

Ketara wrote:I just feel I should state here(as I realise its only been implied) that the OP has a certain number of units in his possesion, and wants to make use of as many of them as possible, so as to minimise the cost of buying more stuff.
Hence the list is not designed to be what I would consider optimum, but making the best of what the OP already owns.

Samus, you can generally have a single portal down close enough to the opposition to have units wih a decent range for assault on Turn 2 as they emerge. 12" of movement plus an inch rotation plus two inches deployment, plus, the three inches the portal takes up, plus six inches for the unit to move on, plus six inches for assault, plus whatever they may get for fleet as well....Well, it adds up.

Yeah, I can imagine. The second (and consequently) three don't all need to down on T2, I get it.

Seeing as the Taloses can wreck face by popping out of a portal halfway across the field... I like this list a lot. I might switch up the wyches with warriors or trueborn for some shooting power up that close. The assault can be handled by the incubi (or the wracks that are already there).

FlingitNow wrote:

Samus, you can generally have a single portal down close enough to the opposition to have units wih a decent range for assault on Turn 2 as they emerge. 12" of movement plus an inch rotation plus two inches deployment, plus, the three inches the portal takes up, plus six inches for the unit to move on, plus six inches for assault, plus whatever they may get for fleet as well....Well, it adds up.

Yes but you're only getting that if you go first and if you go first your opponent sees where you raiders are and deploys as far away from them as possible...

How are batman and superman these days? Please choose a more intelligent method of critiquing an army list.....

For what its worth, if I was building this style of army list from scratch for myself with no limitations, I'd swap out Vect, the Incubi, and a squad of Wyches for Sathonyx and as many Beasts as I could get my hands on. Possibly some deep striking scourges as well. As already stated though, the user has a certain number of units already that he wants to make best use of.....

For what its worth, if I was building this style of army list from scratch for myself with no limitations, I'd swap out Vect, the Incubi, and a squad of Wyches for Sathonyx and as many Beasts as I could get my hands on. Possibly some deep striking scourges as well. As already stated though, the user has a certain number of units already that he wants to make best use of.....

We haven't been told what units he has and what you're stating you'd take would be an improvement. Plus advice that strays from his model collection will help him when he starts to add to his model collection again.

Feh. Ninja'd a bunch.

Here is my current collection:

1 Vect (Custom built Archon)
20 Wyches
10 Warrior
2 Talos (Working on getting myself a 3rd)
15 Hellion
5 Incubi
3 Haemonculus
15 Mandrake (Being used wracks)
3 Raiders