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Hey Dakka,

It's been a long time coming, but my goal is to start a Space Marine army come late May or early June.
The only problem I've run into is which chapter do I choose...
I've talked this over with a couple of buddies of mine and narrowed it down to these few:

Black Templars
Dark Angels
Imperial Fists / Crimson Fists

Does anyone play these armies regularly? And have advice on tactics, organization, the do's and don'ts, anything really?
I've never been a Space Marine player, always a Guard - so the tactics are widely different. Shame though, sure do love an artillery strike in the morning.

Black Templars to my knowledge are extremely well in close combat due to vows. I don't have a codex in hand so I'm not positive of course. This is all second hand information from my buddies - so naturally I came to Dakka to disprove lolz. Don't tell them that otherwise I'll be buying beer for the whole month.

Now I am well aware Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are more of a generic cookie cutter force, by this I mean not huge constraints on what they can or can't have.
I've never had any experience with yellow paint so Imperial Fists could be a real challenge for me.

Dark Angels - not a clue in the world. All my friend said was they are the monster that lurch under your bed. They use psychic abilities combined with veteran squads.

Currently, leaning towards the Black Templars - love the idea of a crusade to purge the universe. My friends recommended reading the black library novels: Rynn's World, Helsreach, and The Purging of Kadillus as each shows the strengths of the different armies and what not.

Well that ends my rant, hope to hear from everyone soon!

OG Sandwich - the Original Gangster of Sandwiches

Well for Imperial/Crimson Fists, they just use the vanilla marines codex, although they both do have a nice special character. Unfortunatly I can't really give you any advice on how to run them, as I haven't used either character yet.

My suggestion, take a look at some of the units available, and decide based on how they look. If you like Black with tabbards and the Iron Cross, go with Templars. If you like robes and feathers, go with Dark Angels, if you like fisting people(wait does that sound wrong?) Go with Imperial or Crimson fists.

If you want to run a fluffy Imperial Fists list, you get Captain Darnath Lysander. One of the best close combat characters in the entire game. He is a MONSTER in CC, with a Str 10 Thunder hammer, 4 wounds, WS 5 and a Storm Shield. He also lets you bolster a ruin (3+ instead of 4+ cover) as you deploy, and if you attach him to a shooting squad, every bolter shot rerolls to hit (murderous with Sternguard or even Tactical Termies). I personally LOVE Lysander, I have run vanilla marines for years and years and if I don't want an alpha striking Shrike list, Lysander is my go-to guy. In big games, I'm talking 2000 points, I would have trouble even considering a list without him, I like him that much.

If you want to run a fluffy Crimson Fists army, you run Pedro Kantor. He makes your Sternguard into scoring units. This fits in nicely with the fluff, since with Rynn's World all blowed up, the Crimson Fists should be running a lower model count high elite army. He also has a 12 inch +1 Attack bubble and some pretty decent stats with his custom stormbolter and Pfist. I find him a bit squishy, with only a 3+ armor save though.

If you're considering codex marines, definitely consider the Imperial Fists. Or, if you don't like painting yellow, consider pre-heresy Iron Warriors, they were very similar to the Fists, and you could run Lysander as their counts as primarch or something.

Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists sounding better and better!

Black Templars all the way! Smash their faces in and claim their souls for the Bloo... *cough* THE EMPEROR!

On a more serious note, while un Templars are ded killy in CC, since the FAQ the most competitive lists are shooty lists, utilizing our cheap LS typhoons, terminators with tank hunters and dual CMLs and the fact that we still can create lasplas squads with 5 dudes to hold home objectives. The icing on the cake is that once your enemy reaches the Templar's lines, we charge and smash their faces in the old fashoned way! The thing about CML terminators is that they're more or less impossible to lock in combat. Either you wipe them out fast, in which case whatever charged them gets shot to Kingdom Come by the rest of the Templars, or you fail to kill all of them and get punched in the face with preferred enemy power/chain fists. LC Assault Terminators with furious charge and preferred enemy, with one or two TH/SS guys mixed in for 3++/walker smashing, will kill literaly anything I5 or lower in the game with ease, with the possible exception of C'tan. We also have cheaper tri-las predators than anyone else.

Another thing that us Templars do better than everyone else (wow, I think this is like the third or fourth time this month that I've written this, guess Templars are getting popular ) is an all-drop pod list. Whereas the normal counter to all-pod lists is to simply reserve your army, almost guaranteeing that you're the one getting the jump on your enemy, Black Templars have the old Drop Pod rules, and as such don't auto-drop on turn 1. Furthermore, we can take terminators in drop pods. Dual assault cannon tank hunters terminators dropping in next to you WILL ruin pretty much anyone's day. 1 Venerable Tank Hunter dreadnought per detatchment certainly helps too (Effectively S11 (!) DCCW versus vehicles FTW).

To summarize:

Awesome units:
Assault Terminators, Tactical Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, lasplas squads, the Emperor's Champion (who's mandatory over 750 anyway), drop pods, predator tanks. Some swear by meltabomb assault marines, but I haven't tried them myself.

Not-so-awesome units:
Sword Brethren, normal Land Raiders, techmarines.


This message was brought to you by the Black Templars propaganda bureau. Keep calm and carry on. Carry on crusading that is!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:wow, I think this is like the third or fourth time this month that I've written this, guess Templars are getting popular

This message was brought to you by the Black Templars propaganda bureau. Keep calm and carry on. Carry on crusading that is!

Yes this is becoming a rather common theme isnt it?

Walrus pretty much nails it on the head here, not much more else to add. Personally, I like to run non-terminator sword brethern sometimes, but thats purely for fluff reasons and because I love the models.

If fluff is your thing as well, then be aware that because of neophytes, BT can effectively run a horde army, which is VERY cool.

liam0404 wrote:[If fluff is your thing as well, then be aware that because of neophytes, BT can effectively run a horde army, which is VERY cool.

Gah, knew I forgot SOMETHING! The infamous Black Tide! 20 guys per squad running towards you, yelling. You shoot one of the scouts dead, and they pass their "Are we pissed? YES WE ARE!"-test (thanks to whomever it was who created that quote!) and run at you even faster! Then, when they've all smacked into your lines, Grimaldus uses his relic to give every Templar within up to 12" an extra attack...

And if Grimaldus is in a blob unit, even the neophytes get to re-roll to hit when charging due to his regular chaplain rules.

Nasty!

Much as it pains me to say it, go Crimson Fists. 30 sterngard with 40 or so tac marines backing them up should be able to dominate any on foot army and have enough firepower to make the opponent go on foot. Mind you you may lose 40 marines but you will have 30 left to plant the flag on any objectives and the sheer quality of marines should make you good to go in a KP game.

The black templars with preferred enemy are nasty but it is HTH nasty. Personally I don't like sticking my eggs all in the basket of needing to dominate HTH as there are a lot of armies out there that can match you.

Much as I would like to say Dark Angels (DAaddict afterall) their codex just has too many disadvantages unless you are looking at a pure deathwing army. Wait for the next codex on DA and maybe they will be restored to the balance.

DAaddict wrote:
The black templars with preferred enemy are nasty but it is HTH nasty. Personally I don't like sticking my eggs all in the basket of needing to dominate HTH as there are a lot of armies out there that can match you.

As we already have demonstrated though, Black Templars don't. Being able to pump out as many krak missiles as a long fang squad for equal points with missile speeders, backed up by S9 krak missiles from terminators makes the Black Templars insane at ranged firepower. The HTH part is more or less a bonus for when your enemy reaches you these days...

black templars are fun to play you either run towards or you run away xD its like marines but fanatical they also get some unique stuff and have a great colour scheme that can be tweaked for crusades.

imperial fists become powerhouses with lyander he makes boltguns your best option and hardly ever goes down.

crimson fists ive played kantor hes pretty nice he hits pretty hard and sternguard become your best "troops" on the field hes flimsy but he will stick around enough to do some damage (also don't forget he has orbital bombardment)

Dark angels are the army that just like to hang around they have good option and id say they have some of the best characters even if they are old one gives you a AV 14 landspeeder armed to the teeth, another makes his whole squad get a 4++ . also terminator armies and bike armies xD


(also for DA the unlimited range psychic hood which STILL hasn't been FaQ'd xD)

Could any of you suggest a good 750 or 1000 point army list for Black Templars?

So, have you chosen BT then?

If not,

IMPERIAL FIST YELLOW

1 basecoat black.

2 spray snakebite leather.

3 paint yellow bits Iyanden darksun leaving the very shadowex bits leather.

4 paint all Iyanden bits sunburst yellow.

5 you can leave it at that (other than highlights) but it is a bit too bright for me so I always wash devlan mud completely, feather on sunburst onto the lighter bits and highlight with a mix of sunburst yellow amd bleached bone 1:1.

hope you find it useful.

Another to bring to the crusade!

Black templars are the way to go, I usually run rhino rush but there are a variety of competitive builds for them. I know some people say shooty templars but I prefer smashing people's faces in with them. Preferred enemy and furious charge on a lot of units, and the most important thing, numbers!

I mix myself up and say that this army is playing under the rules of "___" (fill in the blank) tonight. Now.... As for black templar... every vehicle can take power of the machine spirit...so... that's fantastic. Predators are overpriced to hell and back though so I just take vindi's. They take out just about anything, paving a way for your assaulty force to really show what they've got.

Emperor's champion is fantastic. Using prayers to your advantage is good, I enjoy the preferred enemy or the invuln saves on everything.

definitely running LR crusaders with assaulty groups can be awesome too. Most of it is space marine models so you can always run most of the units in a separate ways. I just use whatever codex I feel like playing (granted I play on local and friendly basis..no tournaments..yet..). My friend did the same by coloring his army gray-ish and saying they're the knights ____. "Blood Knights" "Dark Knights" "Grey knights" ;P "Knights Templar" "Wolfknights" etc. "Imperial knights" was his codex SM units... except when he was playing he'stan..in which he'd play Dragonknights. anyways I digress.

Some people have issue with it.. I play the game to have fun. Though I don't use Space wolves models for Black templar and vice versa.

I'd suggest before getting into it deeply (since you can always create your own chapter and their own fluff) to test play the codecies before you buy a codex specific model (or any for that case if you can avoid it.) The game's just to expensive to just buy models that you won't enjoy playing.

OGSandwich wrote:Hey Dakka,

It's been a long time coming, but my goal is to start a Space Marine army come late May or early June.
The only problem I've run into is which chapter do I choose...
I've talked this over with a couple of buddies of mine and narrowed it down to these few:

Black Templars
Dark Angels
Imperial Fists / Crimson Fists

Does anyone play these armies regularly? And have advice on tactics, organization, the do's and don'ts, anything really?
I've never been a Space Marine player, always a Guard - so the tactics are widely different. Shame though, sure do love an artillery strike in the morning.

Black Templars to my knowledge are extremely well in close combat due to vows. I don't have a codex in hand so I'm not positive of course. This is all second hand information from my buddies - so naturally I came to Dakka to disprove lolz. Don't tell them that otherwise I'll be buying beer for the whole month.

Now I am well aware Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are more of a generic cookie cutter force, by this I mean not huge constraints on what they can or can't have.
I've never had any experience with yellow paint so Imperial Fists could be a real challenge for me.

Dark Angels - not a clue in the world. All my friend said was they are the monster that lurch under your bed. They use psychic abilities combined with veteran squads.

Currently, leaning towards the Black Templars - love the idea of a crusade to purge the universe. My friends recommended reading the black library novels: Rynn's World, Helsreach, and The Purging of Kadillus as each shows the strengths of the different armies and what not.

Well that ends my rant, hope to hear from everyone soon!

OG Sandwich - the Original Gangster of Sandwiches

I play Black Templars and Dark Angels.
The Bad things
Dark Angels- Waiting for codex and when theye do come out which is another year. They are very secretive.
Black Templars- Really hard to play now, Are always angry, and are righteous and very ignorant.
Imperial Fists-Like the black templars.
Crimson Fists- Survivors and a bunch of idiots that shot there own fortress with their own missile killing 8/10 of their chapters.
And I recommend reading all of the books your friends have told you to read they are good.
Rynn's world is really good, Crimson Fists have got to have one of the best and longest lore of all time. Just choose who you like best.

dignifiedsausage wrote:So, have you chosen BT then?

If not,

IMPERIAL FIST YELLOW

1 basecoat black.

2 spray snakebite leather.

3 paint yellow bits Iyanden darksun leaving the very shadowex bits leather.

4 paint all Iyanden bits sunburst yellow.

5 you can leave it at that (other than highlights) but it is a bit too bright for me so I always wash devlan mud completely, feather on sunburst onto the lighter bits and highlight with a mix of sunburst yellow amd bleached bone 1:1.

hope you find it useful.

Do you have any pictures of how the models turned out using that method?

EndlessWrath wrote:I'd suggest before getting into it deeply (since you can always create your own chapter and their own fluff) to test play the codecies before you buy a codex specific model (or any for that case if you can avoid it.) The game's just to expensive to just buy models that you won't enjoy playing.

Agreed! It's getting very pricey - when I played IG you could get 20 cadians for $35-40. Now only 10 for $24 that's a bit much don't you think. I haven't scanned the entire site to see big changes partially because I don't remember lol

I have not chosen an army yet, I really want to get my hands on the books and read the fluff because I like the fluff even if the armies has its drawbacks, but every army does. Wish there was a Imperial Fists book though.

Fancy models do not make up for bad strategy (granted they do help a tad.) I play for fun, mainly friends and local game shop folks - nothing big like a tournament. I went to one once, models were fantastic looking, very cool atmosphere, for the most part friendly people, but as the day ended some guy freaked about losing. He ended up throwing a Demon Prince (?) against the concrete wall, saying the other guy "cheated" by using same cheap move. So I doubt I'll step foot in one anytime soon.

look at the troop choice selection and see which one you like the best because you have to take them every time and that is why I stop playing black templar

Space Marines are new to me, so I don't have any tactics or strategy in effect yet.
So I don't know what my army should consist of per say. A full terminator army always made me cringe at the game shop - until my basilisks made them into pancakes hehe

1.) Haven't settled on an army
2.) No tests games due to #1

So far I got Move->Shoot->Smash the Enemy's Face

For my IG it was Stay Still-> Shoot Everything -> Prepare for Attack, and hopefully get in another artillery round before my opponent gets into close combat range.

^^IG strategy 4-5 years ago, not sure if that has changed due to the improvements and Valkyries.

The only reason I said don't take fancy models just yet was because chapter specific models can't really be used in other armies. But... base boltgun marines can be used in every army to some degree. Terminators can be used in every army (very effectively mind you)

Play test what you like. Read up the fluff and enjoy yourself but remember, you can create your own fluff. Which is totally what I did with my chapter.

The Crimson Fists are a subchapter of the Imperial Fists correct?
That being said can Lysander and Pedro be in the same army?

OGSandwich wrote:The Crimson Fists are a subchapter of the Imperial Fists correct?
That being said can Lysander and Pedro be in the same army?

Yes and No. You can have any character work with any character including seperate chapters for one player...so long as its in Codex marines. Imperial fists + crimson fists you can field.

Here's the issue. Chapter Tactics. Only one of them work... so you can use both characters but only really receive the benefit of one. I ran Lysander and Shrike "counts as" Ran Shrike chapter tactics and lysander just joined my assault termis. They were counts as, but given circumstances and proper paint schemes and "proper fluff reasoning" you can have them meet up at the same time for an epic battle... just 1 chapter tactics.

OGSandwich wrote:The Crimson Fists are a subchapter of the Imperial Fists correct?
That being said can Lysander and Pedro be in the same army?

They're a Second Founding offshoot of the Imperial Fists (as are the Black Templars BTW), but they're for all intents and purpouses a stand-alone chapter.

EDIT:

Templars 1k points:

Emperor's Champion, AAC, NMTO - 140

Crusader Squad, lascannon, plasma gun - 101
Crusader Squad, lascannon, plasma gun - 101
Crusader Squad, multi-melta, melta gun, rhino with smoke - 153
Crusader Squad, multi-melta, melta gun, rhino with smoke - 153

Dreadnought, lascannon, missile launcher - 135

Land Speeder Typhoon - 70
Land Speeder Typhoon - 70
Land Speeder Typhoon - 70

Leaves you with 7 points to spend on an ice cream. More or less the list I currently play at 1750, minus all the expensive as gak terminators and some drop pod shenanigans. Not too sure how it'd work without the termies, but at least your opponent has less stuff to shoot at you too, eh? Anyhow, everything sits back and pelts your foe, the rhinoes get to objectives and then you just drown your enemy in krak missiles and lascannon fire.

Dark Angels positives

- Terminators as Troops
- Terminators can mix and match assault and shooting
- Bikes, attack bikes, and Land Speeders apart of Ravenwing Attack Squads are troops
- BS4 scouts
- Cheap Typhoons
- AV 14 Land Speeder a la Sammael
- 5 man special weapon squads
- Azrael grants his unit a 4+ invulnerable
- Interrogator chaplains (+1 BS, W,I, and A for 20 more pts than a standard codex chaplain)
- 3 characters with Rites of Battle
-unlimited range psychic hood
-Terminators have cheaper Cyclone Missile Launchers
-Cheaper Venerable Dreadnoughts (though lacking in the stats of the codex Ven. Dreads.)
-Techmarines do not use up a FOC slot
- Servitors have more and cheaper upgrades
- Land Raider Crusader comes with a free multi-melta
- Rhino Storm Bolters are cheaper

Cons of the Dark Angels
- Captain stats are worse than codex equivalent
-Command Squad has more expensive upgrades
-Librarians are more expensive and have less variety of psychic powers.
- Scouts are elites and cannot be taken as troops
- No camo cloaks for scouts
- No Vanguard Vets
- Tactical Sgt's have less upgrade options
- No combat tactics
- Tactical squad upgrades are more expensive
- Terminators are more expensive
- Terminators may not take a dedicated transport
- Dreadnoughts are more expensive
- Less types of Dreadnought
-Techmarines are more expensive and have less options
- Servitors are more expensive
- Assault Marines are more expensive
- Can't have a squadron of Typhoons. Limit of 3 (per FOC)
- Bikes cannot add less than 3 bikes
- Bikes have less options
- No scout bikes
- No Thunderfire Cannons
- Land Raiders cannot take multi-meltas
- No Land Raider Redeemer
- Predators are more expensive with more expensive upgrades
- Vindicators are more expensive
- Rhino Hunter-Killer Missiles are more expensive
- Razorbacks are more expensive with less options
- Drop pods are more expensive with no options and do not have the 'Drop Pod Assault' special rule

- Upgrade sprue is cheaper than a tactical squad, but comes with less other weapons than boltguns for the squad

I have jurst startdd painting a SM battlkle force so i will take some WIP pics for you, post them on the showcase and send you a PM.

Lysander and Kantor have the same chapter tactics rule (stubborn) so it doesnt make a difference.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry, quotes dont work on my phone.

dignifiedsausage wrote:
Lysander and Kantor have the same chapter tactics rule (stubborn) so it doesnt make a difference.

Except Kantor makes Sternguard scoring...

Yeah, so you use Pedro Kantor's chapter tactics instead of Lysander.

dignifiedsausage wrote:Yeah, so you use Pedro Kantor's chapter tactics instead of Lysander.

True, but you'd have to specify that your using Kantor's cause that's really important. I/C fists can be fun to play though.

If you tend to fight nid players go DT but if you like shooting go for crimson fists. If you like really good CC go with imperial fists.

zxwarrior wrote:If you tend to fight nid players go DT but if you like shooting go for crimson fists. If you like really good CC go with imperial fists.

erm... This bothers me slightly.
Crimson fists and Imperial fists have the exact same CC. The only difference is the actual HQ unit because Lysander is a monster in CC and Pedro normally cries in CC with any decent CC unit. Sure armies tend to focus with crimson fists MASSING sternguard.. but you certainly don't have to. They can also pick up the assault termies just like I.Fists.. cause its the same codex. In fact... I'd say that Pedro benefits the armies CC capability a bit more than lysander and lysander benefits the shooting in the army better... why?
Lysander, Super assaulty guy.. but has Bolter Drill and Bolster defense.. letting you park an awesome squad in a 3+ ruins or... adding him to a sternguard unit or some such sillyness.
Pedro Gives the attack bubble. But is a good shooting unit... He makes your sternguard good scoring units so it encourages more shooting in the army but doesn't restrict it...hell.. i assaulted with mine and won the game because of it (bubble helped amazingly x__x)
I think saying one HQ is better than the other at certain things is fine... but.. Saying this chapter is better than the other within the games rules is silly..because they're the same codex just different rules. Hell.. you can run Lysander with a counts as Imperial fist flavored Pedro and call them Imperial fists..that'd be nasty. Or vice versa. No one chapter (between those two...) is better than the other at CC or shooting or Heavy support (except in fluff)