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Ok quick story short, my full Khorne based army isnt working as good as i hoped so i am going for an undivided army list now while keeping some aspects of my Khorne list. Sorry If the additions for a 2k army look confusing!

Any item in brackets are upgrades specific to the mini before the brackets


HQ

Kharn The Betrayer - 160

Daemon Prince - Wings, MOS, Lash - 155 (oh yea feel the cheese )

Troops

10 Chaos Marines - Champ(Powerfist), Khorne Icon, 2x Plasmaguns, Rhino() - 285

9 Berzerkers - Champ(Powerfist), 2 Plas pistols, Rhino() - 294

8 Plague Marines - Champ(Powerfist), 2x Plasmaguns - 254

Heavy Support

3 Obliterators - 225 (Unsure whether to deploy these as 2 units or 1)

Vindicator - 125

Total - 1498

Possible Upgrades for a 2k List:

Defiler - Combat Arms - 150 (Oblits would be put into 1 squad to free up an HS slot)

5 Bikers - Champ(), Nurgle Icon, 2x Meltaguns - 250 (im considering changing this to a 3 man squad so when Daemon is summoned I have 2 melta bikers running around )

Greater Daemon - 100

Total - 1998

IF there is 3 Bikers then add the Following:

1 Plague Marine with a Rhino() and Personal Icon to already made squad - 63

Personal Icon to Berzerkers - 5

Total with these addons - 2,000

OR

10 Chaos Marines - Champ(), Khorne Icon, 2x Meltaguns, Rhino() - 250

Defiler - Combat Arms - 150

Greater Daemon - 100

Total - 1998

Two things

First kharn is 165 points so you are actually over.

Ok well it's more than two things. but i'll try to keep it short.

If you are going to run zerkers cut the plasma pistols since it doesn't allow them to "uber-grit" reducing those models attacks by 1 and losing a 21 point base model to getting hot is pretty terrible.

Cutting the vindicator is a pretty good choice IMO. It's 125 points for 1 gun that will most likely be destroyed the first turn of shooting by most competent players.

Also huge thing is not having all your infantry in rhinos. One thing about WH40K nowadays is theres mech everywhere and footslogging it doesn't cut it anymore.

I personally take 3 squads of Plague Marines in rhinos 7 man each with 2 meltas in each squad. Gives me great armor killing from all my units and allows me to pop any infantry in the game with no risks or additional costs.

If you're going to run kharn PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remember to detatch from the squad hes in the in the movement phase before you assault so you dont cleave your own guys in half.

If youre taking zerkers I personally feel that a power weapon on the champ is a better route just give him meltabombs as well so he can actually hit armor. The thing is wasting that I5 on a champ to take a fist is gonna be a bit lackluster when you meet up with I3 orks and they sweep your squad because your champ attacked last. Meltabombs still give him a chance against armor.

On a side note if you don't know the rules for bolt pistol + close combat weapon it's pretty easy to remember. If they have a bolt pistol and close combat weapon in their wargear then they get to shoot their bolt pistols as well as assualt and have +1 attacks for the CCW. If they have anything instead of their bolt pistols they lose both of those bonuses, as far as I know if 1 unit is unable to assault in the squad the squad can't assault meaning if those zerkers shot their plasma pistols they couldnt assault.

I would personally drop the vindi, as it will be destroyed in the first turn, maybe trade it in for a predator, not sure about the points cost for a pred though, as I don't have my codex in front of me

To take a predator with lascannon spansons it's gonna cost you 130. I personally think the chaos armor is some of the worst in the game(excluding LR and Defiller). The best choice in terms of armor is probably the Defiller. For 150 points you get a battlecannon and a walker with strength 10 attacks. It's a very versatile unit and since it's a walker the rear armor value is pretty much null. And on the topic of the defiller there's nothing like grouping together a nice unit of MEQs with lash then opening up with plasma cannons as well as a battle cannon. Also assaulting a unit with the defiller after you lash them towards you is pretty sweet. Go Go kiling sanguinare and his guard with just a defiller. That's like 500 points dead and they need 6's just to glance.

Daemon Princes come in pairs so I'd drop the Prince and keep Kharn and maybe get a Chaos Lord with daemon weapon and MoK.

CSM with plasma are pretty messed up. Got a power fist and MoK for assaulting but cannot assault because rapid fire weapons! Drop all combat upgrades inc the Champion.

You don't need the plasma pistols on the Berzerkers.

You don't need the power fist on the Plague Marines as you cannot assault after firing rapid fire weapons.

Vindicators should always come in pairs to take another one of those not crappy Defilers who don't know if they're meant to be shooting or combat and TBH they do neither job very well.

Move onto the second quote to see updated list!

BiscuitsOfWrath wrote:Two things

First kharn is 165 points so you are actually over.

Also huge thing is not having all your infantry in rhinos. One thing about WH40K nowadays is theres mech everywhere and footslogging it doesn't cut it anymore.

If youre taking zerkers I personally feel that a power weapon on the champ is a better route just give him meltabombs as well so he can actually hit armor.

I actually calculated Kharn wrongly in the spreadsheet file, dunno why i made him as 160 points lol.

I was actually going to utilise the Plague Marines differently depending on the game type, Objective based has them sitting on a base and for others they would be sat into a key building and stay there picking off anything that comes near.

Yea now you mention it reducing an I5 to I1 isnt worth it, ill give him a power weapon.



For those saying i should drop this and that due to not being able to assault after rapid fire, that really depends how far they are from me(and its purely based on my judgement since you gotta declare anything before measuring).

Okay so reading up on the Rapid Fire rules does require me to change how I think about things a bit, however my counter to that is if the enemy is within 6"(based on judgement) then ill fire the pistols(same AP and S as a boltgun just 12" range) and they would still allow me to assault. If over 6" but less than 12" then just fire the boltgun rapidly. If over 24* then normal shot bolter. Surely the rules allow you to choose what weapon to fire. The rapid fire rules are really for those RAW people, but most of the people let you either take both shots from the people in the 12" range and not assault or take 1 shot from each guy and assault(its auto assumed that the pistols are fired since you are only taking one shot to assault). The rapid fire rule is somewhat silly as nearly all the players I have played with have allowed you to choose whether to rapid fire or not.

The Plasma pistols on the zerkers can still assault, even with them firing, only if the profile says "Heavy" then they cant shoot and assault and i dont think pistols are heavy weapons lol. On page 29 of the most recent rulebook para 2 line 1 it says "All pistols are effectively Assault 1" and plasma pistols are classed as pistols. But yea i will probly drop them for the dreaded roll of a 1 with them and losing a zerker.

The vindicator will probly come out and replaced with a defiler since iv seen how long vindis last(not long).

Updated List wrote:HQ

Kharn The Betrayer - 165

Daemon Prince - Wings, MOS, Lash - 155

Troops

10 Chaos Marines - Champ(Powerweapon), Khorne Icon, 2x Meltaaguns, Rhino() - 265

9 Berzerkers - Champ(Powerweapon), Rhino() - 254

8 Plague Marines - Champ(Powerweapon), 2x Meltaguns, Rhino() - 269

Heavy Support

3 Obliterators - 225 (Unsure whether to deploy these as 2 units or 1)

Defiler - Combat Arms - 150

Total - 1483

Got 17 points to spend, was thinking of a havoc launcher on a rhino just to use up points, but suggestions are welcomed!

johnscott10 wrote:


For those saying i should drop this and that due to not being able to assault after rapid fire, that really depends how far they are from me(and its purely based on my judgement since you gotta declare anything before measuring).

Okay so reading up on the Rapid Fire rules does require me to change how I think about things a bit, however my counter to that is if the enemy is within 6"(based on judgement) then ill fire the pistols(same AP and S as a boltgun just 12" range) and they would still allow me to assault. If over 6" but less than 12" then just fire the boltgun rapidly. If over 24* then normal shot bolter. Surely the rules allow you to choose what weapon to fire. The rapid fire rules are really for those RAW people, but most of the people let you either take both shots from the people in the 12" range and not assault or take 1 shot from each guy and assault(its auto assumed that the pistols are fired since you are only taking one shot to assault). The rapid fire rule is somewhat silly as nearly all the players I have played with have allowed you to choose whether to rapid fire or not.

The Plasma pistols on the zerkers can still assault, even with them firing, only if the profile says "Heavy" then they cant shoot and assault and i dont think pistols are heavy weapons lol. On page 29 of the most recent rulebook para 2 line 1 it says "All pistols are effectively Assault 1" and plasma pistols are classed as pistols. But yea i will probly drop them for the dreaded roll of a 1 with them and losing a zerker.

The vindicator will probly come out and replaced with a defiler since iv seen how long vindis last(not long).

Ok. I will have to go into more detail seems you cannot work it out. If you rapid fire with the plasma guns you cannot assault which means the power fist is wasted. If you want to assault then you cannot fire which means two plasma guns are wasted. Either way something is been wasted and you're not getting the most out of your unit because of bad weapon synergy. Not to add the Champion with the fist costs silly points. Rapid fire weapons are not for "those type of RAW people" at all it's how the rules of written, it's quite simple reason why you can assault with one shot is because you're firing a pistol which is a different weapon and is a assault weapon, it's not a case of being a "RAW people" it's a case of using a totally different weapon with totally different rules. You really should learn about the weapon types before making weird remarks. . And yes you can switch the pistols if you like but my point remains about the high cost and bad weapon synergy and the plasmas are still being wasted. If you took say flamers you could fire them and still assault, much better. Either way the fist is a waste of time.

Yes I know plasma pistols can assault on the Berzerkers, thanks for the rules lesson. You're still missing the point so I'll have to go indepth. Plasma pistols cost 15 points which are too expensive for one shot but because of gets hot! rule you could lose your own model to a missed shot and failed armour save, bad times!

Defilers are utter rubbish. They do not know if meant to be shooting or assaulting as they have a big cannon which is they fire cannot assault because not using fleet. Even when shooting or assaulting they're not very good at either. Your Vindicator probably doesn't last because you're taking one, when someone sees a big S10 AP2 template they're going to deal with. If you take two they both will attract attention meaning everything else will be fine plus if one gets taken out you still have two.

BiscuitsOfWrath wrote:
On a side note if you don't know the rules for bolt pistol + close combat weapon it's pretty easy to remember. If they have a bolt pistol and close combat weapon in their wargear then they get to shoot their bolt pistols as well as assualt and have +1 attacks for the CCW. If they have anything instead of their bolt pistols they lose both of those bonuses, as far as I know if 1 unit is unable to assault in the squad the squad can't assault meaning if those zerkers shot their plasma pistols they couldnt assault.

wait, you do know its ANY pistol gives you the +1 in assault and can shoot before? if not then how do orks shoot their SLUGGAS and still assault? and guards men with las pistols get to charge and get +1. and kharn would NEVER be given anything that would make him not assault/ lose attacks. (sorry if this sounds mean, its just one of the basic rules) but i do see how they would be bad choice, i never use them my self.

WTF? plasma pistols are pistols and assault weapons. Core rules this.

mercer wrote:WTF? plasma pistols are pistols and assault weapons. Core rules this.

The profile for a plasma pistol is : Range : 12" S: 7 AP:2 Type: Pistol, Gets Hot!. So i read up on pistols just to see if there was anything special and it said "All pistols are effectively Assault 1" meaning, I can shoot the pistols still assault and still get the +1 attack from havin them in combat.

mercer wrote:Ok. I will have to go into more detail seems you cannot work it out. If you rapid fire with the plasma guns you cannot assault which means the power fist is wasted. If you want to assault then you cannot fire which means two plasma guns are wasted. Either way something is been wasted and you're not getting the most out of your unit because of bad weapon synergy. Not to add the Champion with the fist costs silly points. Rapid fire weapons are not for "those type of RAW people" at all it's how the rules of written, it's quite simple reason why you can assault with one shot is because you're firing a pistol which is a different weapon and is a assault weapon, it's not a case of being a "RAW people" it's a case of using a totally different weapon with totally different rules. You really should learn about the weapon types before making weird remarks. . And yes you can switch the pistols if you like but my point remains about the high cost and bad weapon synergy and the plasmas are still being wasted. If you took say flamers you could fire them and still assault, much better. Either way the fist is a waste of time.

If you read over my updated list you would see I no longer have any plasma weapons in my 1500 list and have given all my champs power weapons to free up some points for a rhino for the plague marines.

But maybe what I meant and said were quite different, in tourneys if you said firing Boltguns and were within 12" you would need to fire 2 shots each. However in friendly games if you said firing boltguns you could choose whether to fire 1 shot or 2 and if shooting 1 could still assault as your opponent would probly see it as firing bolt pistols unless you up against a guy who plays by tourney rules every game and doesnt allow you to change your declare after youve said it.


I dont want this to get into a big debate about the rules, theres a forum in dakka for that sort of thing.

You seem to have misinterpreted the saying about power weapons. That is only for zerkers. Since plague champions strike at I3 the PF doesn't matter too much. And make sure if you do give a champ a PW you also give him meltabombs.

Looks pretty reasonable. I don't have a problem running the lone prince because as long as he has wings, you can hide him pretty well until you've moved things into position with Lash. I've many times thought about replacing one of my two Lash princes with Kharne, but man do I love the Prince.

Defilers and Vindicators are both fine units, and they synergize well with Lash (which also synergizes with the berzerkers!). I WOULD probably make the decision to choose 2 of one or the other though. There's something to be said for redundancy. The lone unit of Oblits does work fine for me though.

Agree to drop the plasma pistols. I put fists on my Berzerkers in order to allow them to crack open transports if they have to - never thought about melta bombs. Might be a better way to go, might not.

I will be trying fist-free plagues in my next session. The 60 points or whatever I had to spend seems ridiciulous for how little I ever used them. I'll see if I miss them.

Including a 2nd unit of berzerkers makes an ubelievable difference in their effectiveness.

List Version 3

HQ

Kharn The Betrayer - 165

Daemon Prince - Wings, MOS, Lash - 155

Troops

10 Chaos Marines - Champ(Powerweapon, Meltabombs), Khorne Icon, 2x Meltaaguns, Rhino() - 270

9 Berzerkers - Champ(Powerweapon, Meltabombs), Rhino() - 259

8 Plague Marines - Champ(Powerweapon, Meltabombs), 2x Meltaguns, Rhino() - 274

Heavy Support

3 Obliterators - 225 (Unsure whether to deploy these as 2 units or 1)

Defiler - Combat Arms - 150

Total - 1498


I decided to give all my champs the Power Weapon and Meltabomb combo purely because I wouldnt have enough points to give the Plague Champion a powerfist

Looks great!

I think you might end up changing that CSM group w/ Khorne icon to straight berzerkers after you play a few games, but I don't see anything wrong with your list that is glaring.

Have fun with it!

1-UP wrote:Looks great!

I think you might end up changing that CSM group w/ Khorne icon to straight berzerkers after you play a few games, but I don't see anything wrong with your list that is glaring.

Have fun with it!

Could be an idea, but sadly the unit would cost 280 points so id be over the 1500 limit by about 10 points.