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I decided to write these rules for a mate so he can use his HellBlade in a 40k game, enjoy and comment

HellBlade Fast attack 1-3 per slot (Sqaudron)
F12
S12
R10
BS3
Special rules: Stealth, Fast, Skimmer, Possessed
Weapons: 2 Twin-linked Auto-cannons, May upgrade to Las-cannons for 20pts Per Auto-cannon

Points: 120

Is this serious?

Hellblades already have rules for 40k. You just need the Imperial Armour book with the rules(Imperial Armour volume 6 has them, likely one of the Apocalypse volumes does as well) and an opponent willing to play them.

Kanluwen wrote:Is this serious?

Hellblades already have rules for 40k. You just need the Imperial Armour book with the rules(Imperial Armour volume 6 has them, likely one of the Apocalypse volumes does as well) and an opponent willing to play them.

I shall assume you are being polite, and yes its serious.

You see, the HellBlade is a Flyer, flyers cant be used in standard 40k only apoc allows flyers, so I created this for him, and updated the rules a little.

Formosa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Is this serious?

Hellblades already have rules for 40k. You just need the Imperial Armour book with the rules(Imperial Armour volume 6 has them, likely one of the Apocalypse volumes does as well) and an opponent willing to play them.

I shall assume you are being polite, and yes its serious.

You see, the HellBlade is a Flyer, flyers cant be used in standard 40k only apoc allows flyers, so I created this for him, and updated the rules a little.

Uh, actually flyers can be used in standard 40k.

There's even rules for them included in the very book I mentioned.

In fact, every Imperial Armour book includes an appendix of things that would require special rules or unique instances , of which are usually four main things:
1: Superheavy Vehicles
2: Flyers
3: Special Rules
4: Gargantuan Creatures.

Put simply: there's nothing to stop him from using the rules for the Hellblade in "standard 40k". It's just considered a jerk move to do it when you're not playing a friendly game or the other person doesn't get some kind of option/warning to offset the flyer(this really doesn't become necessary unless you're using a super-heavy flyer like the Thunderhawk or Marauder).

im pretty sure its called apocalypse if superheavys and flyers ect are used. a standard 40k game uses the 40k rulebook, apocalypse is using an expansion...

and mabye not everyone has imperial amour.....

mezorgon1234 wrote:im pretty sure its called apocalypse if superheavys and flyers ect are used. a standard 40k game uses the 40k rulebook, apocalypse is using an expansion...

So is it Cities of Death if there's a large amount of buildings on the table?
Nope!

Apocalypse is an optional rules set, and refers to massive battles with super-heavy vehicles all over the place. Hellblades are far from being super-heavy, and can feasibly be killed by massed heavy weapons fire.

and maybe not everyone has imperial amour.....

That's not my problem, now is it?

However: I've got the books, I have no problem letting people within my local group see/use the rules within it--so long as they respect my property and don't damage said property.

Kan.. dude.. there are no rules for flyers in the 40k rulebook, I have no problem with useing FW stuff in a "standard" game, and own the FW books (bloody good books), but were playing "standard" games not expantions, did my mate a favour AND even buffed the Hellblade for him so he could use it.

Now comment on the rules I have posted, not on the ability of the FW Hellblades ability to be used in a "standard" game.

So what do you think? Balanced? ott?

standard 40k refers to using the 40k rulebook and NOTHING else if you use another book its called apoc or cites of death. what formosa is trying to do (i think) is make the rules so they can be used witout an expasion book rules like strD, flyer, super heavy ect... it makes the model fair in Standard 40k games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i think the rules are good.

but BS3? thats nid styl, at least make it 4.

yep, exactly

its BS 3 due to possessed, without it, it would be BS 4.
but twin linked auto-cannons kind of mitigate that, however i chose not to give it twin linked las-cannons, that would be harsh lol

ahhh... im not exactly a chaos player to know what posesed does but i have played with helblades in aeronautica imperialis


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ahhh... im not exactly a chaos player to know what posesed does but i have played with helblades in aeronautica imperialis

Formosa wrote:Kan.. dude.. there are no rules for flyers in the 40k rulebook, I have no problem with useing FW stuff in a "standard" game, and own the FW books (bloody good books), but were playing "standard" games not expantions, did my mate a favour AND even buffed the Hellblade for him so he could use it.

Of course there's no rules for flyers in the 40k rulebook. There was nothing that remotely came close to being a "flyer" in the general codices when it was published.

Now comment on the rules I have posted, not on the ability of the FW Hellblades ability to be used in a "standard" game.

So what do you think? Balanced? ott?

I think they're garbage rules. You say you "buffed" the Hellblade for him, but really all you did was make it easier to destroy. Sure, it has 2 points higher armor on front/side and the points cost is 10 points less...but it will be immobilized/destroyed relatively easier since it can be fielded in squadrons and it's only a skimmer. You also left off the anti-aircraft mount that is the whole bloody reason people would field the Hellblade. It's not a bomber. It's not even really a ground support aircraft like the Thunderbolt/Lightning can act as. It's an air superiority fighter.

And "stealth"? Why the hell is "stealth" on it?

it has stealth due to it being an are superiority fighter, its incredibly fast, so if it needs to redeploy quickly it has a 3+ cover save. Plus something as fast and hard to target as a Hellblade would be difficult to target, so I added stealth, it was the best USR to represent this

AA mounts are not needed in "standard" games, no flyers.
However, now you mention it, I think I may add the same rule the Hydra has, negating flat out cover saves etc.

Yes it can be taken in a sqaudron, it can also be taken as 3 seperate choices, like landspeeders, Valkeries etc.

2 twin-linked auto-cannons mean its very effective at destroying other skimmers/aircraft, and for a few more points it can be used as a light support tank hunter

As to only being a skimmer, it can now gain cover saves easier (being lover to the ground)

At this point, you're really just reaching with justifications for the special rules. If the fighter's going to be flying low enough to gain cover saves or engage targets with the autocannons(which are centerline mounted, requiring the fighter to be pointed directly at the target), it sure as hell won't be moving fast enough to "quickly redeploy". It would likely have its vectored engines active, and be operating like a helicopter--making it really easy to be taken down.

If you want to let him use it, just man up and use Apocalypse/IA. Seriously. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using flyers in standard games of 40k, especially if it's just friendly games.

Formosa wrote:AA mounts are not needed in "standard" games, no flyers.

just chuck a pintle mounted stormbolter on top... pintle mounted counts as AA mount and can be used in standard games too

if you turbo boost, you get a 3+ cover then +1 for stealth. thats a 2+ cover save for turbo boosting!! thats awesome! makes it a bit harder to kill. but if you do fail the 2+ cover then you crash lol

I really like it , great idea and much easier than using fliers rules.
I hope we get something similar.

Good rules and points cost if you ask me

Kanluwen wrote:At this point, you're really just reaching with justifications for the special rules. If the fighter's going to be flying low enough to gain cover saves or engage targets with the autocannons(which are centerline mounted, requiring the fighter to be pointed directly at the target), it sure as hell won't be moving fast enough to "quickly redeploy". It would likely have its vectored engines active, and be operating like a helicopter--making it really easy to be taken down.

If you want to let him use it, just man up and use Apocalypse/IA. Seriously. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using flyers in standard games of 40k, especially if it's just friendly games.

Son.. you really dont have a clue what your talking about, I have tried to be civil with you, but you continue to be rude. please refrain from posting further.
Thank you

Well that didn't go well did it mate.

I am the person that triggered this thread by buying a hellblade. I'm perfectly happy to use the Forgeworld rules but there are a lot of people in the store I play in who immediately whine about flyers being owerpowered, how I'm being a WAAC gamer (and I'm not a tournament player unlike most of them!) and all the usual gripes about anything forgeworld.

So the comprimise was to write some rules which would let it be used as a skimmer, for some reason the same whiners would let me use unofficial rules but not the real ones despite the fact that Formosa and I could easily make it even more overpowered than they claim the flyer rules make it.

Personally I want to use the proper rules for it. I suppose the best thing I can do is turn up with two lists one with the Hellblade and one without. If my opponent is a whiny moron I won't use it, if they are up for something interesting, different and entertaining then I'll use it.

And to boil down to a final point, I play Thousand Sons I need all the help I can get.

Nick Ellingworth wrote:Well that didn't go well did it mate.

I am the person that triggered this thread by buying a hellblade. I'm perfectly happy to use the Forgeworld rules but there are a lot of people in the store I play in who immediately whine about flyers being owerpowered, how I'm being a WAAC gamer (and I'm not a tournament player unlike most of them!) and all the usual gripes about anything forgeworld.

Nick, are you just springing it on them out of nowhere? Because that's what gets a lot of people.

So the compromise was to write some rules which would let it be used as a skimmer, for some reason the same whiners would let me use unofficial rules but not the real ones despite the fact that Formosa and I could easily make it even more overpowered than they claim the flyer rules make it.

I find that the usual gripes and whines go away if you let them use the FW rules for an item in their own army for a game. It lets them see just how vulnerable the thing is.

Personally I want to use the proper rules for it. I suppose the best thing I can do is turn up with two lists one with the Hellblade and one without. If my opponent is a whiny moron I won't use it, if they are up for something interesting, different and entertaining then I'll use it.

If someone's going to whine about a 130 point, 10/10/10 twin-linked Autocannon delivery platform that is slightly hard to hit: they're not worth playing against.

And to boil down to a final point, I play Thousand Sons I need all the help I can get.

Oh lord, no doubt

Kanluwen is entirely correct about using Flyers in non-apocalypse scale games of 40K.

Seeing as how the Hell Blade is a non-standard model and vehicle type (flyer), it requires an expansion ruleset to use it in 40K. As Kanluwen already mentioned these expansion rules are included in the Imperial Armor book that the Hell Blade is featured in, Imperial Armour Volume 6. I will not divulge all of the expansion rules for using flyers in 40K as I'm pretty sure that is against forum rules but in a basic sense, the rules have the flyer doing strafing runs during the opponent's turn. It does take some careful reading to properly understand but the resulting gaming experience is fantastic. Since the flyer makes its attack during the opponent's phase, the opponent has an opportunity to gun it down during its run before it can peel off to safety until the next turn.

If you are going to use flyers in 40K you don't need to create your own special rules and doing so would likely rob the flyer of most of its cool factor in being a flyer. As Kanluwen previously stated, you just need those brief expansion rules and you are good to go. It really is the best way to use a flyer in 40K and it doesn't make them overpowered as their resilience is accounted for when Forge World decided on the points cost.

Kanluwen wrote:

Nick Ellingworth wrote:Well that didn't go well did it mate.

I am the person that triggered this thread by buying a hellblade. I'm perfectly happy to use the Forgeworld rules but there are a lot of people in the store I play in who immediately whine about flyers being owerpowered, how I'm being a WAAC gamer (and I'm not a tournament player unlike most of them!) and all the usual gripes about anything forgeworld.

Nick, are you just springing it on them out of nowhere? Because that's what gets a lot of people.

Nope, I always give advance warning about what army I'm bringing and 90% of people I play know exactly what I'm bringing (I use all comers lists).

Kanluwen wrote:

So the compromise was to write some rules which would let it be used as a skimmer, for some reason the same whiners would let me use unofficial rules but not the real ones despite the fact that Formosa and I could easily make it even more overpowered than they claim the flyer rules make it.

I find that the usual gripes and whines go away if you let them use the FW rules for an item in their own army for a game. It lets them see just how vulnerable the thing is.

I'm perfectly happy to play against forgeworld stuff or super heavies (the latter with warning of course) in a regular game and I always make that perfectly clear.

Kanluwen wrote:

Personally I want to use the proper rules for it. I suppose the best thing I can do is turn up with two lists one with the Hellblade and one without. If my opponent is a whiny moron I won't use it, if they are up for something interesting, different and entertaining then I'll use it.

If someone's going to whine about a 130 point, 10/10/10 twin-linked Autocannon delivery platform that is slightly hard to hit: they're not worth playing against.

Probably true. Plus to use the Hellblade I'll be removing a Defiler which is a much more powreful unit.

Kanluwen wrote:

And to boil down to a final point, I play Thousand Sons I need all the help I can get.

Oh lord, no doubt

Best advice I can give is simply to let them 'try out' your list with the Hellblade in it.

Educating people that most FW stuff is uselessly overcosted or just more of a 'fun' item is best done doing methods like that

Nick Ellingworth wrote:Well that didn't go well did it mate.

I am the person that triggered this thread by buying a hellblade. I'm perfectly happy to use the Forgeworld rules but there are a lot of people in the store I play in who immediately whine about flyers being owerpowered, how I'm being a WAAC gamer (and I'm not a tournament player unlike most of them!) and all the usual gripes about anything forgeworld.

So the comprimise was to write some rules which would let it be used as a skimmer, for some reason the same whiners would let me use unofficial rules but not the real ones despite the fact that Formosa and I could easily make it even more overpowered than they claim the flyer rules make it.

Personally I want to use the proper rules for it. I suppose the best thing I can do is turn up with two lists one with the Hellblade and one without. If my opponent is a whiny moron I won't use it, if they are up for something interesting, different and entertaining then I'll use it.

And to boil down to a final point, I play Thousand Sons I need all the help I can get.

I know exactly what you mean Nick lol
these are the people who will not let me use the Imperial armour Redeemer in my DA, but will happily put down a Prometheus... mad.
They said no to the Hell blade so I offered to help =]

Mmmmmm, toasted marshmallows.

Not bad formy, and i canna wait to blow this up.

Formosa wrote:

Nick Ellingworth wrote:Well that didn't go well did it mate.

I am the person that triggered this thread by buying a hellblade. I'm perfectly happy to use the Forgeworld rules but there are a lot of people in the store I play in who immediately whine about flyers being owerpowered, how I'm being a WAAC gamer (and I'm not a tournament player unlike most of them!) and all the usual gripes about anything forgeworld.

So the comprimise was to write some rules which would let it be used as a skimmer, for some reason the same whiners would let me use unofficial rules but not the real ones despite the fact that Formosa and I could easily make it even more overpowered than they claim the flyer rules make it.

Personally I want to use the proper rules for it. I suppose the best thing I can do is turn up with two lists one with the Hellblade and one without. If my opponent is a whiny moron I won't use it, if they are up for something interesting, different and entertaining then I'll use it.

And to boil down to a final point, I play Thousand Sons I need all the help I can get.

I know exactly what you mean Nick lol
these are the people who will not let me use the Imperial armour Redeemer in my DA, but will happily put down a Prometheus... mad.
They said no to the Hell blade so I offered to help =]

Then don't let them use the Prometheus.

If they're going to be knobs about you utilizing FW rules, then use them--just say no.