Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So being a new player to 40K, I chose BT to start off. The fluff apealled to my nature, and I have decided to start forming a decent army list for people to give some opinions on.

Going through the BT book, I noticed a heavy support option called the Vindicator. Not being completly inept with 40K rules, I notice it seems to have a pretty strong ordnance gun. I figured it would be great for a heavy support choice, but after reading some tactics on BT, alot of people seem to say vindicators won't last as long as Predators on the battle field. After looking at their stat lines, their armour values seem to be the same. Is there something Im missing here that makes the vindicator a second choice behind the predator? Is it because the predator has more guns, or can fill more rolls with weapon options? Or that vindicators are mean and killy, so people tend to target them as a priority?

Vindicators are shorter-ranged meaning that they are more likely to be in harms ways, whilst predators are unlikely to be threatened by the likes of Meltaguns and Chainfists etc.
Similarly, due to the sheer power of their main gun, Vindicators can be scary buggers and are therefore more likely to be targeted by the enemy before they reach their lines.
Finally, a single weapon-destroyed result can end a Vindicators usefulness.

Both are solid choices and the Vindicator can merge well with the in-your-face nature of BT's and made more durable through PoTMS, however Predators are also adept at sitting back and shooting from afar, particulraly against enemy transports. Also, IIRC the all-lascannon Predator is cheap for BT's than other Space Marines.

Both have their uses, but typically the vindicator wouldn't last as long. Then again, if they aren't shooting your vindicators then the enemy would be shooting something else in your army (eg. the replacement predators) and the Vindi's really are a threat that must be stopped. Depends on the nature of your army I'd say. If it's more shooty, I'd go for Predators and Typhoons. If it's more in-your-face, then Vindicators may be the way to go...

AHhh ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. I love the idea of vindies, but I would prob only take them against Horde armies, while I'd stick to Preds for maybe more MEQ based armies. Granted, preds could shine in both from what you say, as they could take out transports while my troops do the clean up. Things to keep in mind for sure...thanks!

Vindicators are best run in groups of 3.


3 Vindicators is much much more effective.


BT vindicators can also take PotMS, something no other vindicator can(and it's the new PotMS too IIRC) which means it can always fire it's gun which means it's impossable to stun into ineffectivness.

However, depending on what your build is, you can use 3 predators as a cheap screen for your rhinos/razorbacks, which I do for some of my armies.

I agree with templar you can pay a nice some of points to make a group of vindicators your enemy's number one priority meaning other things can advance unharmed.

Another nice trick I used to use with my BT army way to advance a Vindi between two LRC's. Before anyone says it, I know. It's pricey however it's fluffy to use LRC's and they protect the weaker side armour of the vindi.

Predators aren't a cheap screen for BT. They're 100 points for an autocannon Pred. More if you want smoke launchers or other upgrades. the t-link lascannon pred is 120 IIRC. In codex marines its 60 for autocannon and 105 for t-link lascannon. Which comes with smoke launchers and searchlight.... Why do you think predators are cheap for BT again?

That being said.. obviously I side with the other side. I love the Vindi shenanigans. Its around 150 for PotMS and Vindi... and it truly wreaks havoc upon the field. Granted I fight armies with either lots of models or phalanx formations... so it works well even if it scatters. Other people don't like the randomness of the template. Also assaulty armies don't like blast templates possibly dropping onto friendly targets... It worked for me though. I suggest the Vindi assault all the way since its the only army that can do PotMS Vindis

I use vindi's and i love them, they deny armor saves, and kill almost anything with a two up.

EndlessWrath wrote:Predators aren't a cheap screen for BT. They're 100 points for an autocannon Pred. More if you want smoke launchers or other upgrades. the t-link lascannon pred is 120 IIRC. In codex marines its 60 for autocannon and 105 for t-link lascannon. Which comes with smoke launchers and searchlight.... Why do you think predators are cheap for BT again?

Because our lascannon sponsons cost 25 points instead of 60?

The MMORPG term "Agro" best describes why Vindicators are less durable than Predators.

Predators have a range advantage over Vindicators.

Vindicators massively outgun Predators.

Because the Vindicators can lay do so much more hurt than a Predator your opponent is going to be a lot more worried about a Vindicator, and thus the Vindicator is going to agro your opponents guns.

Opponents will often choose to ignore a predator in your backfield laying down long ranged firepower, but a Vindicator threatening an opponents scoring unit that is needed hold an objective is too great of a threat to ignore.

Strike 2 is the close range of the Vindicator's guns also means it's closer to your opponents melta guns, as opposed to your opponent having to throw S8 missiles or S9 lascannons at a predator's front armor.

All of that being said the Vindicator is a better tank imho. While Vindicators are much more likely to die during the game than a predator the simple fact is Vindicators can win games with single demolisher cannon shot, and knowing the Vindicators will draw "agro" makes your opponent predictable.

Normally I'm a fan of the pred for marine lists. But with BTs you get the option of POTM, ,keeping that gun firing all game, even when moving 12. The BT vindi is a nice unit, and the proper blunt instrument for a BT army.

notabot187 wrote:Normally I'm a fan of the pred for marine lists. But with BTs you get the option of POTM, ,keeping that gun firing all game, even when moving 12. The BT vindi is a nice unit, and the proper blunt instrument for a BT army.

Vindicators sound good in a BT army that's running a lot of Rhinos. The Rhinos can hull down the weak side armor of a Vindicator, and the Vindicators can draw firepower off the Rhinos as they are great bullet magnets.

I don't see any real synergy between predators and the rest of a BT army.

I am a fan of both really. When points allow I like to run one pred and two vindi's with POTM.