Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HQ:

- Baron Sathonyx

-Haemonculus w/Hexrifle (open to suggestions on what to equip him with since he will be detaching from hellions after first turn)

Elite:

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

Troop:

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Hellion x7 w/helliarch,stunclaw

Fast Attack:

-Reaver x3 w/heatlance

-Reaver x3 w/heatlance

Heavy Support:

-Ravager w/flickerfield

-Ravager w/flickerfield

-Ravager w/flickerfield

Hellions sit on on objective with a pain token, 3+ cover save, and defensive grenades from baron. Reserve reavers for late game objective contesting from my board edge or getting some 9" melta range action going. Army has 23 Dark light weapons and 2 meltas. As always C&C is welome.

Hückleberry wrote:- Baron Sathonyx

-Haemonculus w/Hexrifle (open to suggestions on what to equip him with since he will be detaching from hellions after first turn)

Liquifier gun, hop in a raider and use it on enemies later on.

Hückleberry wrote:-Hellion x7 w/helliarch,stunclaw
Hellions sit on on objective with a pain token, 3+ cover save, and defensive grenades from baron.

Given this set up of eight models, edit, or is that 7 *and* the helliarch and the Baron?) add one more Helion. If two die it's a Morale Check, and then if they Retreat! it's 3d6 inches.

Two dying from a starting number of 9 bodies, and there's no Morale check.

I see the StunClaw as an unnecessary upgrade for objective squatters, unless, you plan to have them more mobile, right?

it would be a total of 8 models. If I have a ton of dakka coming at me I plan on going to ground so 2+ cover with 4+ FnP. I could squeeze one more hellion in there if I give the haemonculi a liquifier and got rid of the helliarch with stunclaw.

Those Trueborns will be better of with blaster that raider will become stationary and out of position pretty quick.

You're playing DE as a static gunline using the Baron to objective squat?!?!?

That cover save won't work against templates and other cover denying weapons (IG have a metric tonne of them). 8 T3 models really isn't as great as you seem to think.

Those Reavers are 1 shot suicide units with less than 1 in 5 chance of popping a landraider. Why bother?

Warriors don't know what they're shooting, just wasted points there. Trueborn can't move and fire making a hugely effective unit immobile and therefore dead.

Baron is taken but not really utilised. Stealth isn't worth 105 points. Hellions don't work in such small groups.

Hückleberry wrote:- Baron Sathonyx

-Hellion x7 w/helliarch,stunclaw

At 1850 you're going to use 300 points or so of an assault unit to squat on an objective? Why not just get Wracks, it would be cheaper and you could still join the Baron to them for the cover bonus and you wouldn't need to buy a Haemy just to give them a pain token (though you do need one to make them troops, but...). Overall I find the strategy not optimal no matter what you use, but I wouldn't use Hellions if my plan was objective squatting. Even just a big squad of Warriors with a lance would probably serve you better.

-Haemonculus w/Hexrifle (open to suggestions on what to equip him with since he will be detaching from hellions after first turn)

Your problem is that you don't have a clear idea for the rest of the army and so the Haemy's army multiplier effect is being overlooked. You're paying a lot of points just to give the Hellions FNP, and then deciding that the Hellions are going to sit and wait while the enemy shoots at them - eh...? I personally believe (as outlined in the Dark Eldar Tactica, which you can find a link to in my sig) that DE's best defense is a good offense. I think you're throwing that idea out the window and then spending a lot of points to try to make a unit tough, when you don't need to. I see no reason to 'assign' a unit to objective squatting. Assign a unit to killing things - then worry about objectives in the last turn or maybe two.

Elite:

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

Gunline Trueborn - a fine option.

Troop:

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

I actually like the Gunboat build, though I feel it's not as optimal as it once was it's still a fine all purpose Troop selection.

Fast Attack:

-Reaver x3 w/heatlance

-Reaver x3 w/heatlance

Have an issue with these. Consider what they're capable of doing - consider their cost - consider what you could get as a Troop selection for that cost. Why are you getting RJBs when you still have an open Troop slot? Our Troops can be about as fast, have as much anti-tank capability (and indeed probably more) for the same cost, are harder to kill, and (most importantly) can claim an objective besides just contesting it.

Heavy Support:

-Ravager w/flickerfield

Can never complain about Ravagers.

I think you need to refocus the list - The Haemy has nowhere optimal to go with his Hexrifle. It's an anti infantry weapon but your anti-infantry units have no room in their Raiders for him to join. He could join the Trueborn, but than there is a question of whatyou shoot at as the optimal target for 2 Lances is not the optimal target for a Hexrifle. He needs to be redefined and/or have a unit redefined for him to join it. The bulk of your focus appears to be sort of a gunline/midrange rush, and I'm not sure what the Hellions are about. If they're really just squatting you're tossing points away on that unit. If they're moving up with the rest of your army to assault than they are the singular focus of an army that fears close combat. You either need another 1-2 assault options, or you need to just focus more on the gunline, I don't like the idea of burning as many points as you are when for that same cost you could basically afford 2 Wych units.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Your problem is that you don't have a clear idea for the rest of the army and so the Haemy's army multiplier effect is being overlooked. You're paying a lot of points just to give the Hellions FNP, and then deciding that the Hellions are going to sit and wait while the enemy shoots at them - eh...? I personally believe (as outlined in the Dark Eldar Tactica, which you can find a link to in my sig) that DE's best defense is a good offense. I think you're throwing that idea out the window and then spending a lot of points to try to make a unit tough, when you don't need to. I see no reason to 'assign' a unit to objective squatting. Assign a unit to killing things - then worry about objectives in the last turn or maybe two.

QFT

Gunline Trueborn - a fine option.

Can't stand them, hate non-mobile units.

I actually like the Gunboat build, though I feel it's not as optimal as it once was it's still a fine all purpose Troop selection.

Maybe its my marine heritage speaking but I just don't value units that do nothing well (hence why I rarely take tac squads and if I do they are always streamlined). I'd rather have a streamlined unit. But yes its not a terribad unit just not optimised.

Have an issue with these. Consider what they're capable of doing - consider their cost - consider what you could get as a Troop selection for that cost. Why are you getting RJBs when you still have an open Troop slot? Our Troops can be about as fast, have as much anti-tank capability (and indeed probably more) for the same cost, are harder to kill, and (most importantly) can claim an objective besides just contesting it.

QTF. Reavers are for cluster caltrop shennanigans and annoyance and look better than they play (really love the models).

Can never complain about Ravagers.

I think you need to refocus the list - The Haemy has nowhere optimal to go with his Hexrifle. It's an anti infantry weapon but your anti-infantry units have no room in their Raiders for him to join. He could join the Trueborn, but than there is a question of whatyou shoot at as the optimal target for 2 Lances is not the optimal target for a Hexrifle. He needs to be redefined and/or have a unit redefined for him to join it. The bulk of your focus appears to be sort of a gunline/midrange rush, and I'm not sure what the Hellions are about. If they're really just squatting you're tossing points away on that unit. If they're moving up with the rest of your army to assault than they are the singular focus of an army that fears close combat. You either need another 1-2 assault options, or you need to just focus more on the gunline, I don't like the idea of burning as many points as you are when for that same cost you could basically afford 2 Wych units.

Again QTF I agree strongly with the vaste majority of what Thor has said and advise you follow most of his advice.

FlingitNow wrote:Maybe its my marine heritage speaking but I just don't value units that do nothing well (hence why I rarely take tac squads and if I do they are always streamlined). I'd rather have a streamlined unit. But yes its not a terribad unit just not optimised.

I think we're having a fine line division between optimized, and adaptable. Consider that the "unit" in question has two dark light weapons, so is almost as potent in anti-tank as the very focused Ravager.
Now consider that it can potentially pump out 22 poison shots (and a Blaster round) at infantry, and still fire a lance at a vehicle, and you have a unit that can serve you ably on the table versus both mech horde and foot horde lists, and pretty much always has a way to hurt whatever you're fighting. I personally believe DE can generalize far better than Marines simply because of our weapons being poisoned, it makes them useful against pretty much anything.

I'll agree I personally tend to go for the Dakka Venom + 5 guys and a Blaster build, because point wise and purpose wise I find it a better cost value and it maintains the speed and maneuverability that is so key to DE in my opinion, but it's still a multi-purpose unit.

FlingitNow wrote:I agree strongly with the vaste majority of what Thor has said and advise you follow most of his advice.

Your cheque is in the mail.

HQ:

- Baron Sathonyx



Elite:

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

-Trueborn x3 w/ 2 Darklances
raider w/flickerfield

Troop:

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield

-Warrior x10 w/blaster,splinter cannon
raider w/flickerfield


Fast Attack:
4x Beastmaster w/ 5x Khymerae,3x Clawed Fiend, 8x Razorwing


Heavy Support:

-Ravager w/flickerfield

-Ravager w/flickerfield

-Ravager w/flickerfield

Updated list with Thor's advice taken. C&C welcome!

I'll agree I personally tend to go for the Dakka Venom + 5 guys and a Blaster build, because point wise and purpose wise I find it a better cost value and it maintains the speed and maneuverability that is so key to DE in my opinion, but it's still a multi-purpose unit.

I wouldn't clasify it as a multipurpose unit. More 2 units working in unison but with different roles...

It is the forced waste of firepower that I'm against. Having the AT spread between 2 units and having the AI concentrated in 1 meaning whatever the KWs actually fire at they are wasting points.

I define a unit as what I get per force org chart - I'll accept your choice to choose to think of them separately, but I can't get the dedicated transport without the unit as well, so to my mind they're joined. That's mostly semantics though - from your point your only issue is the Warriors, basically, regardless of their transport of choice you feel they waste points by being multi-purpose/unfocused.

The reverse argument would be;

If you get two specialized and totally focused units (AT and AI respectively) whenever you fight an army that spams one over the other you're wasting all the points you paid into one of those specialists. (which, is sort of the point of spam)

Agreed but no army spams vehicles to the total exclusion of infantry because then you can't claim objectives. Whilst there are plenty of no-vehicle armies out there the DEs mobility should enable them to win there anyway.

As I said it probably comes from my marine bias (been using them since first Ed and are my go to army) and the number of people I see taking a tac squad is a meltagun and combi-flamer...

I just think the other build if more efficient as you can separate out your AT fire from your AI fire. You're always going to take both so against any spam build your still going to have the wasted points issue. But by separating out the guns into different units (by this I mean things that can target different units so having AI fire in a battlesuit squad built for AT with a Target Lock is fine) it means that you can fire all your AI fire at infantry and all your AT fire at vehicles. Rather than always having to have soe AT firing at Infantry and some AI firing at vehicles.

So would it then be your submission that it would be preferable to take a Shredder as opposed to a Blaster in a 10 man Warrior squad with a Splinter Cannon? Because then all your tools are anti-infantry...but I consider the build inferior.

I will happily concede the DakkaVenom+Blaster Warriors is generally superior to the Raider+Blaster and S.Cannon Warriors. But that is still a difficult call to make without seeing the rest of the army or the synergy therein or what they are opposing. What if the opponent is running Razorspam? In that case the 2nd unit mix is superior whether or not the Warriors have some anti-infantry tools they are not using.

As a secondary example, I equip Wyches with Haywire grenades - are they now inferior because they have a way to damage vehicles that i might not use? Or are they more strategically viable to me because they can threaten a more diverse range of opponents?

As a secondary example, I equip Wyches with Haywire grenades - are they now inferior because they have a way to damage vehicles that i might not use? Or are they more strategically viable to me because they can threaten a more diverse range of opponents?

Does taking haywire grenades reduce the Wyches ability against non-vehicle targets? Is it a significant points hike? I'd say no to both and I'd say CC is the place you need to diversify. Because you can get stuck in combat with a Walker and then thats it fo rthe game for your unit. Those wyches without haywire grenades could be tied up indefinitely by a single sentinel.

With shooting you can, to an extent, pick your targets in CC the enemy can force you to attack a certain type of unit. If you have no tools to deal with that type of unit then its game over for your unit.

For the warriors I'd just go all splinter (so no shredder) in a Raider, blaster in a raider or blaster in a Venom with duel cannons. With them I now feel you need to be as efficient as possible so mostly small units as even large units are immensely fragile so getting extra numbers doesn't really help. I've found 10 warriors dies pretty much as quickly as 5 warriors its just that the enemy overkills the 5 once it gets a chance to attack them.

I just feel DE do best when it is massed units with massed DL weaponry. Whilst DE aren't a horde army they should have a horde of weaponry and units.