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Stole the initiative once yesterday and lost the game, then FAILED to steal my next game and won anyway....Hmmmm

Current list that I'm planning on using:

HQ

240-Vect

ELITE

170-5xIncubi w/Raider
212-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider
212-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider

TROOPS

230-10xWyches w/Haywire, 2xShardnet/Impaler, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider
215-10xWyches w/Haywire, 2xHydragauntlet, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, Raider
135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail
135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail
135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail

HEAVY

105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance
105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance
105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance

-1999pts

I'm thinking about playtesting this list just a little bit:

HQ

75-Succubus with Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades
130-2xHaemonculus w/Liquifier, Venom Blade

ELITE

156-3xTrueborne w/2xDark Lance, Raider w/FF
222-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider w/FF
222-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider w/FF

TROOPS

218-9xWyches w/Haywire, 1xHydragauntlet, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider w/FF
196-8xWyches w/Haywire, 1xHydragauntlets, Hekatrix, Power Weapon, Raider w/FF
145-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail,FF
145-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail,FF
145-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail,FF

HEAVY

115-Ravager w/3xDark Lance, FF
115-Ravager w/3xDark Lance, FF
115-Ravager w/3xDark Lance, FF

-1999pts

One game, a powerfist got a single hit on Vect...he died. My last game, Vect tackles 5 terminators, kills 4, and dies again to a fist in the first round of combat.

It hurts losing 240 pts of an army in this way. Succubus is still scary wounding on 2's and always hitting anything on 3's (WS 8). Wyches start the game with FNP and will simply leave the haemonculi behind if they need to fleet. If not, the haemonculi are still useful with Venom Blades and Liquifiers.

FF's for everyone. My 1850 uses them and they're really useful...I always get back the points for them in non-wrecked airplanes.

The two trueborne with DL's essentially gave me a 3rd Ravager...one that doesnt move. Me likey.

Any thoughts? Which one seems better?

I like the second list with the Succubus more.

I would give the Haemonculi to the two squads of trueborn, though. He's too useful to just leave behind if you have to fleet and with Feel no pain those trueborn will have more of a chance surviving if their cardboard box gets shot down. Honestly, I think that the only IC that should be attached to Wyche squads are ones that have or can have combat drugs (Archon, Succubi).

Up to you though.

Voted for list 2 because those wyches needs a paintoken to stay. and drop those venomblades from Haemys and exchange your PW to an agonizer on those wyches.

I voted for list two because 240 is a scary investment into Vect IMO, and I think that the wyches will really benefit from the haemonculi.

I kind of thought I could see the specilazation purpose behind your Wych squads in the first list - and then you left me scratching my head after seeing the second list.

On the whole I would vote for the second as superior because I personally am against Deathstars in DE builds - our weakness is our...weakness (glass jaw) and consequently I always get nervy about competitive DE Deathstar.

Since you also asked for input on the individual lists below are some collected thoughts;

Deadshane1 wrote:240-Vect

ELITE

170-5xIncubi w/Raider

Already explained my thoughts on Deathstars - gave a sigh of relief when you annotated FFs on everything. Wait, these don't have FFs? Wow - your balls are the size of casaba melons. Overall a perfectly solid unit, just a serious point investment.

212-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider
212-6xTrueborne w/4xBlaster, 2xSplinter Cannon, Raider

Super, super Gunboat, eh? My big thought here is just the awareness that you are paying 44 points or so on anti-infantry tools that are functionally useless when you're focusing on the anti-armor focus of the unit. It's one of the reasons it's so popular to put the 3-4 Trueborn in a Dakka Venom because it allows both the vehicle and the unit inside to fire separately and focus on what they do best. Your army definitely can do with the extra anti-infantry, but I'm not sure if this is optimal. I think this is the cost you're paying to field Vect. My biggest concern with this list is you're fielding less vehicles than I do at 1850 - and at 1850 I usually feel I'm just holding my own on the kill/death ratio as I lose my vehicles. Versus an aggressive shooting army you just have a few units (like this one) that are super grade A+ prime targets, and I find that dangerous with DE.

TROOPS

230-10xWyches w/Haywire, 2xShardnet/Impaler, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider
215-10xWyches w/Haywire, 2xHydragauntlet, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, Raider

One Wych squad for locking down elite assault units, and the other for horde, yes? Interesting build outs, kind of a fun outside the box approach. I would probably still want an Agoniser in the second squad, simply because its kill ratio vs. Horde isn't that much weaker, and its kill ratio vs. anything armored is superior, and I believe it adds a serious adaptability to the unit which is important.

135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail
135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail
135-5xKabalite w/Blaster,Raider,ShockProw,Launchers,Aethersail

I would never want to load out my Raiders with that much bling. The basic build is excellent and is one near and dear to me. I like the combo you're building for, I just can't help but wonder if that many points could find a better home - you're making some pretty expensive paper planes to play chicken with.

HEAVY

105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance
105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance
105-Ravager w/3xDark Lance

Can never complain about Ravagers.

HQ

75-Succubus with Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades
130-2xHaemonculus w/Liquifier, Venom Blade

Really like both of these builds.

ELITE

156-3xTrueborne w/2xDark Lance, Raider w/FF

Happy to see this, I've used this build a ew times and been immensely pleased with the results.

TROOPS

218-9xWyches w/Haywire, 1xHydragauntlet, Hekatrix, Agoniser, Raider w/FF
196-8xWyches w/Haywire, 1xHydragauntlets, Hekatrix, Power Weapon, Raider w/FF

I'm surprised to see the Power Weapon in your anti-horde Wych unit considering your previous list. Even more so than your previous list this one is being dicey with its anti-horde tech, as you have two assault units and the 2 Trueborn squads and that's it. I think you might benefit from the inclusion of a Venom or two, but it does depend on your comfort level for anti-armor and how many lances you want.

My thoughts,
Thor.