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So here's what I'm thinking:

1. Grey Seer w/various goodies and a screaming bell

2. 35 Stormvermin w/Stormbanner pushing the bell

3. Warlock Engineer Lvl 2 w/doom rocket and energy condenser

4. leading 50 clanrats w/full command and PWM

5. BSB w/Banner of the Horned Rat

6. Leading 40 clanrats w/full command and PWM

7. 25 Slaves

8. 6 rat ogres w/2 packmasters and Skweel Gnaw Tooth

9. 5 gutter runners w/slings and poison

10. Plague catapult

11. Warp lightning cannon

12. 2 Hellpit Aboms w/warpstone spikes

I've got about 65 pts left over.
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I'm thinking about squeezing in another team of gutter runners (or increasing the size of the first one). Perhaps by cutting down the 50 clanrats to 40.

Thoughts?

Drop the bell, its really not that good, especially at ard boyz level.

You only have 25 slaves, they are probably the best unit in the skaven book. I would take at least 3-4 blocks of 50 to ard boyz.

Stormvermin also arent really worth their points, clanrats with weapon teams all the way.

Drop Skweel, isnt worth the points imo.

Instead of the stormvermin and bell, add a plauge priest with furnace being pushed by a big unit of plague monks.

Drop the bell, its really not that good, especially at ard boyz level.

-Why not?

Drop Skweel, isnt worth the points imo.

-Hatred or Regen is awfully nice though (but 125pts for him is a bit hefty)

Instead of the stormvermin and bell, add a plauge priest with furnace being pushed by a big unit of plague monks.

-Interesting: furnace over bell, eh?

Most of the effects on the bell are kinda bleh.

If you roll scorch you still have to spend power dice on it since it counts as a bound spell (still dont think this has been FAQ'ed)

Some of the bonus attacks stuff is nice, but I found I didnt like my grey seer tied to a bell. Someone just charges the bell and rips him off the top of it. When he is on foot skitterleap and jumping into different units is fun.

But yeah for its points the furnace is loads better. (just watch out for skinks and the new goblin horde with poison banner)

As for skweel, for 125 you have a 33% chance of getting a whopping 3 more attacks if you run your rogres 3x2, 33% chance for regen (which is really nice for Rogres I wont lie, since they dont have a save) and a 33% chance for hatred which is ok, but most stuff you will be running them into will be steadfast anyway.

Its my opinion that none of the skaven special characters are worth the points tbh.

ShivanAngel wrote:Most of the effects on the bell are kinda bleh.

If you roll scorch you still have to spend power dice on it since it counts as a bound spell (still dont think this has been FAQ'ed)

Some of the bonus attacks stuff is nice, but I found I didnt like my grey seer tied to a bell. Someone just charges the bell and rips him off the top of it. When he is on foot skitterleap and jumping into different units is fun.

But yeah for its points the furnace is loads better. (just watch out for skinks and the new goblin horde with poison banner)

As for skweel, for 125 you have a 33% chance of getting a whopping 3 more attacks if you run your rogres 3x2, 33% chance for regen (which is really nice for Rogres I wont lie, since they dont have a save) and a 33% chance for hatred which is ok, but most stuff you will be running them into will be steadfast anyway.

Its my opinion that none of the skaven special characters are worth the points tbh.

-Fair enough; thanks for the food for thought!

ShivanAngel wrote:Most of the effects on the bell are kinda bleh.

If you roll scorch you still have to spend power dice on it since it counts as a bound spell (still dont think this has been FAQ'ed)

This has, in fact, been FAQed:

Page 43 – Ringing the Bell
Change result 9-10 to “The Bell itself (not the Grey Seer)
immediately casts the Scorch Spell with a Casting Value of 5
(this requires no power dice and cannot be increased in any
way), see page 78.”

Still, it means at best you're probably sucking up a single dispel die.

That makes it a little better, but still not worth the 200 point price tag imo.

At best the opponent will throw 2 dispell dice at it, since it rings at the start of the phase or let the spell go. Or use their level two and attempt it on one dice and risk losing a dispeller on a 1 or 2.

My biggest thing with the bell, is that it actually hurts your grey seer... that unit gets into combat, the focus as many attacks as possible on the poor grey seer on top. which due to the bells base size is normally 4 first rank models+4 supporting attacks. so it usually spells a dead grey serr (and usually army general). Sure you get a 4+ ward, but with only WS3 and T3 a lot of those attacks are going to land and wound.

Absolutely agreed on the Bell, which is a shame since it's a fantastic model that really should be a focal point for Skaven forces. Used it against Lizardmen once and it really didn't end well for the Seer.

Yeah would be awesome if they kept the rules for the bell the same as last editions.

Really, the Lead From the Back rule would have been nice. I can see where it got a little abuse-able, but still...Verminous Valor is almost always a dead rule.

Here's what I'd do:

- drop one Mortar for a Warpfire Thrower. Different. As much, if not more, effective. Flaming and D3 wounds.

- if you want the Sacred Standard, I'd get some other characters in there to accept challenges or something. 'Cause he'll be one dead pile of 140pts in no time, and you've just lost your re-rolls.

- I think that, in a lot of cases, the Catapult is the equal to the Cannon. But the simple fact is: the Cannon is so unbelievable versatile, about as effective in the same situation, and 10pts cheaper.

- I'd downgrade the Stormvermin to Clanrats, give them a weapon team (and bump them to 50-strong), and turn some of the other Clanrats into Slaves (so two units of each). That's assuming you keep the Bell, however.

On that note, I think the Bell has its place. Which is, mainly, not in combat with awesome-choppy-superunits (unless, ironically, it's Warriors, since they have to challenge). The Seer gives out his Ld7 to 18", which allows for a more mobile force, and he can cast somethin' fierce up there, what with his larger range and 360 line-o-sight.

And he is T4, by the way. So...he might actually live through a phase or two!

Good tips; I think I'll try out the bell still, but switch the stormvermin w/a unit of clanrats (and bump the former back up to 40).

I might switch out the warpfire thrower as I've had little luck w/the PWMs (though the no armor save was what first attracted me to them!).

I'll keep the catapult mostly for it's large template and immediate panic tests mostly.

I forgot about the 18" inspiring presence, so I'll definitely have to capitalize on that!

Thanks