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Hey guys, i have been wondering about something for a while now...

In my IG army, there are only two squads in chimeras, the CCS and the PCS. my PCS is really cheap, and only there because it as a need of the platoon. what i wanted to know is, is it really worth it to put my cheap PCS in a chimera while the rest of the platoon walks?

if you need to see the rest of my list, i'll put it here to.

It depends on what you arm them with, what you want out of them, and if there is a good place to hide them.

No right or wrong answer, it's what you need them to do.

Just an FYI stormtroopers aren't a very good unit. For 5 less points you can get twice the vets with a 3rd melta gun and they score. Just something to think about.

Also, Why are you putting Meltas with ACs? Your melta has 1/4 the range of your heavy wepapon so you will be spending most turns not firing it, or not firing your AC whaile getting the melta in range to fire.

And while we are on the Topic; Why does your Co Commander have a power weapon? If he is riding in the Chimera you do not have to worry about assault and if he gets out, your Plasmas will prevent him from charging with it(not that that is a good idea either).

Trim the PIS meltas down to Grenade launchers(1/2 the cost, twice the Range), or no special at all(Sniper rifles are garbage).

Remove the Storm Troopers altogether for another vet Squad with 3x meltas and another Chimera. Put the remaining points into a 3rd plasma for your Co Command squad and add a Medic; drop the power weapon on the Co Commander. Add a Forth Flamer to your Platoon Command squad.

I agree with artfcllyflvrd there, it really depends on what you are doing with them. But I like to keep my troops as mobile as possible. If you have flamers or melta, you really need a delivery system, no one in the right mind is going to let you just walk up the table and shoot there land raider. Keep in mind your CCS is one of the strongest units in the codex. it’s a vet squad with 4 special weapons. My favorite build is

CCS + plasma x4 + Chimera (ML/HF)

Its cheep and very deadly. And if you want to save 20 pts drop the plasma to melta.

And just as a side note. (I wont try to rebuild your army) but don’t get sucked in to all the options in the codex, you want to min/max your IG. Overload your special weapons and loose the stuff you will only really use once a game. If your squad is in a chimera don’t spend the points on CC or armor upgrades, because you will not use them very often.

As for your PCS, you can’t be quite as liberal with there weapon choices. They are going to miss a lot more then you CCS. But with that said they still get to use 4 special weapons, be sure to use all the slots. This is one of the units that’s just kinda blaa, if you know what I mean. they have poor BS, but all there stuff costs just as much as the CCS and on top of it all if you are running a line you have no choice then to take them. What I do is this

PCS + H.Flamer + flamer x3 + chimera (HF/HB)

And now don’t care if it dies, its going to. Just run your chimera in front of a mob, move your 7in. Let them assault, if they don’t shake you torch the grouped up unit. If they do step out and torch the grouped up unit. Rinse repeat, until your unit is killed off. I use the HF on the turret in this case it gives you better coverage on the mob, and a better angle if your tracks get knocked off. (happens often)

Stormtroopers are good they add mobilty to the list and the abilty to threaten out of sight vehicles.

Melta Vets don't need Carapace, Plasma Vets do. Gets Hot hurts a lot less when you have a 4+. If you 're dead set to give the melta Vets a doctrive go with Demolitions. Have you found the fist to be actually useful?

That power weapon on the colonel is wasted. Give it to the Commissar -or- tranform it to another flamer for the PCS. Flamer templates murder anything in multiples. Also might i suggest dropping the third IS and going the way of HWTs?. You now have 20 guardmen with power weapons and meltaguns supported by a commissar, backing your hopefully devastating alpha striking vets, with themselves backed by a chimera of flaming death. Those assault elements are supported by a order shouting CCS that chills in the back next to the big guns and some ACs heavy wepon teams Add a vox network between CCS and CIS and youre golden.

Thanks for the advice guys, all the flaws you pointed out in my list I had fixed previously but ran out of points so I had to cut out some stuff. I'll look at my list tomorrow on my computer because I don't have a copy on my iPod. Also, FYI, I'm not dropping my Kasrkin! They cost me $75 bucks for ten so I'm not dropping them! I'll make a proper post later including all details, but this is it for now, thanks for the help everyone!



EDIT: I'm treating the autocannons as one heavy weapons squad hidden in the infantry

is it worth it to drop the meltas for grenade launchers?

No, melta guns actually do something usefull and are a scary proposition for tankshocking vehicles.

konst80hummel wrote:No, melta guns actually do something usefull and are a scary proposition for tankshocking vehicles.

30 points is a bit much for Tank-shock-insurance(insurance against Tank-shock); especially given the very large gap between the melta's range and the Autocannon's.

Also, if your 28-man unit with 3 Autocannons is getting tank shocked, something has gone very wrong; any tank that would be getting near enough/in a position to tank shock you, should be the target for those 6 s7 shots the turn before. Any vehicle that could possibly tank-shock your blob, and has an AV 13 or 14, should have already been destroyed by the time it can get within 12" of your blob(via your Melta vets, Manticore, either vendetta, or heck, Either Stormtrooper squad).

OP: I understand Your desire to field Stormtroopers since you already have the models and they cost you so much $; They have their roles to fill, and can be fairly good(they are Veterans with Grenadiers, and some other bonus abilities after all). the only reason they are considered "bad" is their cost compared to vets and lack of scoring. In all honesty the cost is not terrible, 10 Stormeys w/Power weapon, and 2 meltas is 195 points(seems a bad cost to begin with, but wait), that gives you 7 AP3 Lascarbines(which have an unspecified value, but we can assume about 2-3 points/model; applied to the whole unit), along with hot-shot laspistol and CCW on every single model in the unit(another 2-3 pts/model), they have free Grenadiers doctrine, then tack on a further Doctrine cost for Special Ops, and you would have to pay 200 points for a Similar Vet squad(70base+20lascarbines+20extra attack/shoot-then assault+30grenadiers+30special ops+20meltas,2x+10powerweapon). Fire output is the same on the move, Storm troopers get the same number of attacks when receiving a charge as the vet squad, when the vet squad charges; one more attack than a charging vet squad when the Stormies charge. The only other difference is that 1 is scoring and the other can deep-strike.

Remember folks, Storms and Vets filled very different roles. Storms dont "suck" per say, they just suck at being vets

105 for a unit to pop out of nowhere relatively accurately can really put on the hurt on a heavy vehicle. If they popped a land raider, they just got you at least 135 points more than you bought them for

Not really a fan of static blobs, why have a bunch of guardsmen mulling about when you can buy more hydras?

kenshin620 wrote:Not really a fan of static blobs, why have a bunch of guardsmen mulling about when you can buy more hydras?

because 155 points buys you 19 stubborn, scoring models with 2 ACs that can be T-L via the CCS you were already buying, all while camping a home-objective. It also nets you access to a mobile PCS that scores(and can either be put in a Chimera or slog as bait; and for the cheap).

Sure 150 points buys you 2 Hydras, but they don't score, and 2 lucky hits with S7 or higher weapons can kill both. 2 scoring units blobbed takes a signifigant higher number of hits, and generally put out more gs that could get multiple templates/blast markers to them(and they get easier cover saves vs the blast markers, unless those are barrage).

OP: Yes, it's most definitely worth it tp have the PCS in a Chimera. Since you're using them as flamer monkeys, the Chimera allows them to flame out of the hatch safely, move fast, and they can go claim objectives if need be.

Also, if your 28-man unit with 3 Autocannons is getting tank shocked, something has gone very wrong; any tank that would be getting near enough/in a position to tank shock you, should be the target for those 6 s7 shots the turn before

Yeah, those 6 S7 shots should be able to just kill anything

Have you ever played against mech eldar? Tank shock shenanigans is a big part of their tactics. Also, any mech-spam list can probably tank shock stuff during a game, you can't destroy everything all the time.
Meltaguns are nice on regular guardsmen. It is one of three weapons that can actually hurt the enemy:
1: Plasma is a nice match with the autocannon, has decent range, same S, decent shots and I've had good experience with it, but it is expensive, and usually only find it's way on my men if I have pts left over.
2: Flamers will probably get one shot, but at least they have a chance of doing something when they do shoot. They work better in blobs than on single squads because more flamers = lots better than fewer flamers, and they synergise well with FrFSrF against many targets. They are also very cheap. This is the minimum an infantry squad should leave home with.
3: Melta is also nice. It makes a 15 point guardsman able to take out a 250+ model. It creates a "risk-zone" for enemy vehicles, and as said earlier, it provides extra insurance against tank shocks.

Sniper rifles and grenade launchers are bad. They should have come for free with the squad to make them worth it.

@OP: 4x flamer PCS in chimera (ML/HF) is an awesome unit. I almost always include this unit in my army. It is cheap, it is scoring, and it always kills way over it's own value. It is a cheap counter-charge unit.

Illumini wrote:

Also, if your 28-man unit with 3 Autocannons is getting tank shocked, something has gone very wrong; any tank that would be getting near enough/in a position to tank shock you, should be the target for those 6 s7 shots the turn before

Yeah, those 6 S7 shots should be able to just kill anything

Have you ever played against mech eldar? Tank shock shenanigans is a big part of their tactics. Also, any mech-spam list can probably tank shock stuff during a game, you can't destroy everything all the time.

I was going to say that - lots of armies will be able to tank shock if they really want - a fully mech army will have 9+ vehicles, and you probably can't stop them all.

I'm building my static combined squads with autocannons and plasmaguns, my instinct says that I need a special weapon, plasmaguns have the range, and GL and snipers are far too weak to be a serious option. It may turn out that the best option is just heavy weapons, or special+power weapons, or even (I doubt it) heavy + power weapons.

It depends on the army and the situation....If I would be you I would use the platoon command squad and a veteran squad in the other with shotguns or heavy flamers. I have a similarity to yours...I use to collect traitor guardsmen or also you may know them as Nurgle renegades. I would always put my plaque ogryns in the chimeras and rush them into the front lines. Also You can get Penal legion squads and by using chimeras you can charge into the enemy lines with them. I hope this will help you.

kenshin620 wrote:

Not really a fan of static blobs, why have a bunch of guardsmen mulling about when you can buy more hydras?

A) my vets need a distraction, a large among of cheap gurdsmen should do the trick.

B) my vets will be out in the middle of the field in heavy combat, so who else will do the scoring?

6 S7 shots will only have a 33% chance to pop a rhino in the open, less on a chimera. So don’t overestimate your weapons here. I think the idea for plasma/AC blobs is the way to go. Most players aren’t going to drive up next to a meltagun lodged well into a IG blob.

komosunder wrote:6 S7 shots will only have a 33% chance to pop a rhino in the open, less on a chimera. So don’t overestimate your weapons here. I think the idea for plasma/AC blobs is the way to go. Most players aren’t going to drive up next to a meltagun lodged well into a IG blob.

Exactly, because they know the meltaguns are there, they don't want to move their tanks within their range = the meltaguns have done an awesome job.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:my instinct says that I need a special weapon

Always take a special weapon, no matter what the squad is meant to do, spending 5pts on a flamer is always worth it. The two better weapons should be considered according to the role of the PIS

Illumini wrote:

komosunder wrote:6 S7 shots will only have a 33% chance to pop a rhino in the open, less on a chimera. So don’t overestimate your weapons here. I think the idea for plasma/AC blobs is the way to go. Most players aren’t going to drive up next to a meltagun lodged well into a IG blob.

Exactly, because they know the meltaguns are there, they don't want to move their tanks within their range = the meltaguns have done an awesome job.

this could lead to a problem in kill point games. If the enemy won't come near me, how will i score?

I am a big fan of the quad flamer pcs. Works great in a chimera as a counter assault solution or in a vendetta to take out units like lootas.

Monk1junk1 wrote:

Illumini wrote:

komosunder wrote:6 S7 shots will only have a 33% chance to pop a rhino in the open, less on a chimera. So don’t overestimate your weapons here. I think the idea for plasma/AC blobs is the way to go. Most players aren’t going to drive up next to a meltagun lodged well into a IG blob.

Exactly, because they know the meltaguns are there, they don't want to move their tanks within their range = the meltaguns have done an awesome job.

this could lead to a problem in kill point games. If the enemy won't come near me, how will i score?

Uhm.. with the rest of your army? If the enemy won't come near you, you have probably already won.

Unless it is another IG army, then they will probably just sit back and bombard you, or engage in a long-range duel.

komosunder wrote:6 S7 shots will only have a 33% chance to pop a rhino in the open, less on a chimera. So don’t overestimate your weapons here. I think the idea for plasma/AC blobs is the way to go. Most players aren’t going to drive up next to a meltagun lodged well into a IG blob.

I will start this with saying that you have an 88.333% chance that each AC shot will get a re-roll against the rhino. that gives us a roughly 66.249% chance to hit/shot fired, You then have to at least glance, glancing for av 11 is a 4+; so that is 33.124% chance to achieve a damage result/shot fired. Now you are looking to slow/stop the rhino at range(not necessarily destroy) so that is a 2/3 chance to slow/stop per penetrating hit and a 1/3 chance with the Glancing hit; that is a roughly 7.361% overall chance/shot; or a 44.166% chance to slow/stop the Rhino for the squad @ 48".