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Ok, I've been playing 40k off and on for awhile, but just started back up again with some new friends who haven't played a whole lot. We've been back and forth on this one issue for a couple days now and I'd love to put it to bed. For the sake of neutrality I won't mention which side of the debate I'm on.

One friend was playing Imperial Guard, the other one Tyranides. They rolled the Dawn of War scenerio so each put out 1 HQ and 2 Troops. The Imperial Guard player placed a Chimera loaded with the squad he purchased with it down as 1 troop choice, he fielded his HQ unit and another squad of guardsman (without a Chimera) was his deployment legal? Also for future reference, if he held the Chimera and it's associated squad in reserve, would he only have to make one reserve roll to bring in both the Chimera and the Squad?

The opposition to it being legal seems to be from page 92 of 5th ed under multiple unit choices it says "Note occasionly the codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organization slot (like dedicated transports) Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as seperate units in all respect"

Any help settling this would be great.

cretinator wrote:... The Imperial Guard player placed a Chimera loaded with the squad he purchased with it down as 1 troop choice

This is incorrect.

The guard unit is 1 unit that is allowed to deploy in the Dawn of War deployment, and the Chimera is the 2nd unit that is allowed to deploy.

P.93 under Dawn of war has an example of this exact setup.

Transports and units embarked within, that are held in reserve, make one reserve roll to bring in both the Chimera and the Squad onto the table.

DeathReaper wrote:

cretinator wrote:... The Imperial Guard player placed a Chimera loaded with the squad he purchased with it down as 1 troop choice

This is incorrect.

The guard unit is 1 unit that is allowed to deploy in the Dawn of War deployment, and the Chimera is the 2nd unit that is allowed to deploy.

P.93 under Dawn of war has an example of this exact setup.

Transports and units embarked within, that are held in reserve, make one reserve roll to bring in both the Chimera and the Squad onto the table.

Well I'll be, lol seems I was wrong then. Least I can admit it. Let me ask you this though, is it something particular to Dawn of War that makes it illegal? I ask because I was under the impression that Dedicated Transports *don't* take up an FOC slot, so why does it count as a Troop Unit in Dawn of War?

Yes, it's specific to Dawn Of War.

The thing is, the Dawn of War set-up doesn't revolve around FOC slots, but around Units.

A squad and its transport are a single FOC choice, but are two separate units. DoW allows you to deploy two Troops units, not two Troops FOC choices.

insaniak wrote:Yes, it's specific to Dawn Of War.

The thing is, the Dawn of War set-up doesn't revolve around FOC slots, but around Units.

A squad and its transport are a single FOC choice, but are two separate units. DoW allows you to deploy two Troops units, not two Troops FOC choices.

Ok, so not to shoot a dead horse but just making absolutly sure I have it right so I can explain it to my friends. In DoW that deployment would be illegal cause DoW refers to "units" not FoC *but* if we were playing some other scenerio it's likely that deployment would be perfectly legal?

For either of the other two standard deployment modes, yes, it would be legal. Whether or not it would be legal in any other scenario would depend entirely on the scenario.

Yes, in both of the other standard deployment modes, you can deploy your whole army in the deployment zone.

Dawn of War Specifically restricts deployment.

You can deploy Up to one HQ Unit, and Up to two Troop Units.

A dedicated transport bought for a troop unit counts as a troop choice, and the transport is a unit, so it counts as one of the two units you are allowed to deploy.

cretinator wrote:

insaniak wrote:Yes, it's specific to Dawn Of War.

The thing is, the Dawn of War set-up doesn't revolve around FOC slots, but around Units.

A squad and its transport are a single FOC choice, but are two separate units. DoW allows you to deploy two Troops units, not two Troops FOC choices.

Ok, so not to shoot a dead horse but just making absolutly sure I have it right so I can explain it to my friends. In DoW that deployment would be illegal cause DoW refers to "units" not FoC *but* if we were playing some other scenerio it's likely that deployment would be perfectly legal?

Rules quotes:

"Dedicated Transports
Dedicated transports...count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) it counts as Elites." -BGB, p87.

Therefore, a DT is a separate unit.

"[The player] can then deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table..." -BGB, p93.

The dedicated transport is a Troops unit, so takes up one of the two Troops units that the player can deploy.

And, finally, have a good read of the example listed on page 93 in the Dawn of War scenario; it actually specifically addresses a similar situation and states that the Space Marines' dedicated transport is used as the player's second Troops unit.

cretinator wrote:

insaniak wrote:Yes, it's specific to Dawn Of War.

The thing is, the Dawn of War set-up doesn't revolve around FOC slots, but around Units.

A squad and its transport are a single FOC choice, but are two separate units. DoW allows you to deploy two Troops units, not two Troops FOC choices.

Ok, so not to shoot a dead horse but just making absolutly sure I have it right so I can explain it to my friends. In DoW that deployment would be illegal cause DoW refers to "units" not FoC *but* if we were playing some other scenerio it's likely that deployment would be perfectly legal?

You should note that the rules (other than army selection) almost never refer to FOC choices.

"unit" is defined on P3. This is worth re-reading as it is crucial to good rules understanding.

cretinator wrote: Also for future reference, if he held the Chimera and it's associated squad in reserve, would he only have to make one reserve roll to bring in both the Chimera and the Squad?

Since no one else answered this hidden question, I suppose i will .

The fourth paragraph of "Preparing Reserves" on page 94 of the BRB has the explanation in more detail to the basic rules on this query, but as a Quick answer: Yes, only 1 reserve roll is made for both a Transport and a Squad inside the Transport, assuming when reserves were prepared the squad was declared to be held in reserve *inside* the transport.

But there is another part to all of this(since you were talking specifically about guard); Any portions of a Platoon(any of the Various squads & Teams, + any DTs) held in reserve all get rolled for as 1 "unit" when it comes to rolling for reserves. the rule stating this is found on page 96 of the guard codex, just after the bold that explains what makes up a platoon.

For Example: A Full infantry Platoon(Command squad, 5 Infantry Squads, 5 Heavy Weapon Teams, 2 Special weapon teams, a Conscript Squad, and 6 Chimeras) are split up at deployment. The 5 Heavy Weapons teams, 2 Special weapons teams, and 5 of the Chimeras are all deployed as normal. The Platoon Command Squad is prepared inside of it's chimera. Second turn rolls around and the Platoon(now just 5 infantry squads, 1 Conscript Squad, and Command squad in their chimera) is rolled for as if they were 1 unit. let's assume they come in first turn. As they are now deploying from reserves the guard player decides to make use of the Combined Squads rule, and combines 3 infantry Squads into one unit, and walks that unit on from his table edge; he then further makes use of the Combined Squads rule for the remaining 2 Units, walking them on in a different area of his table edge. the Chimera rumbles onto the table from his edge with the Command squad inside(being transported), and the Conscripts walk on from anywhere on his table edge.