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 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Honestly, if Mierce and Lane really wanted forgiveness from the consumer end of the community, they'd contact all the people who were ripped off by Maelstrom's non-fulfillment of orders and offer Mierce Miniatures credit for the same amounts of money. It wouldn't do much for the supply chain end who got burned, but this is the only way I could see them having a mostly-successful mea culpa on a larger scale then their existing fans, apologists and those who don't care that the same people ripped a lot of our community off not 4 months ago. ("because, you know, it didn't happen to me!")




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 kenshin620 wrote:

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?
It seems that is the best free thing of them all

I just had a look at the KS, and I'd warn people to be wary about what they expect to be their "freebies".

Anybody who has pledged for a Starter Set in any form or combinatoin will receive one of the following miniatures, for free:

Please note that these are "fixed" for the Starter Set you want - so, for example, if you go for the Angelcynn Infantry Starter Set, you'll get Meloda.

Going by their wording (and they're clearly using words-as-written given their Maelstrom disclaimer about being a legally separate entity), then if you pledge for multiple starter sets, you may find you only get one model, and not multiples. It also says that the model you receive will be tied to your starter faction, so don't be surprised if you receive the man-sized "Kernuor, Ysian Drune" instead of the big Manticore model.

There's no specific wording that says if you pledge for multiple starter sets that you'll get multiple freebies nor does it specifically state that you'll get to choose your free model from one on that list. It does say that they're "fixed" but it doesn't say which one the Manticore is fixed for. (nor does it for any of the figures that belong to the same factions, excepting Meloda).

You'd hope these things would be clarified. Not in the comments but on the KS front page. They've already used weasel words to disassociate themselves from Maelstrom. If I were even slightly disposed to pledge for this kickstarter, I'd want to see that clarified in stone on the front page, not buried in the comments, and you guys who are actually going in should be asking for the same.

Caveat Emptor. Indeed.

It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

Sounds like something that would be worth making crystal clear in the next update, and on the KS main page.

I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

Also, I'd have to agree that it is pretty clear what freebie miniature you will get and that they are tired to what starter set you are chosing. But I also agree that it isn't clear that you will receive a freebie for every starter set you chose. It has been stated by MM a few times that one freebie for every starterset in the comments, and it is pretty darn easy just to read the MM comments so you dont have to bother reading all the others if you wanted to see the "official statement".

KD miniatures were limited runs back then and already sold out.

These miniatures are sold by shops right now.

I'm contemplating going back to my position of 'what does Watchdog have to say about that?'

grefven wrote:
I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

Also, I'd have to agree that it is pretty clear what freebie miniature you will get and that they are tired to what starter set you are chosing. But I also agree that it isn't clear that you will receive a freebie for every starter set you chose. It has been stated by MM a few times that one freebie for every starterset in the comments, and it is pretty darn easy just to read the MM comments so you dont have to bother reading all the others if you wanted to see the "official statement".

You're a bit of an apologist for MM/MG aren't you? When people suggest that maybe they should put some info on the front page to make out clearer for backers, your response is to tell people to go search it out themselves. Tell me, are you a Wyrd fan as well?

Plus KD stretch goals were the models produced in plastic instead of resin iirc. Are those stretch goal models going to be plastic as well? Or will they be exactly the same as what's in stores now?

 judgedoug wrote:
The CMON hate comes from the director having previously ripped off a ton of gamers.

David Doust as New Wave Miniatures/Games ripped off scores and scores of gamers. Then he founded CMON after stealing a ton of money from gamers.

But now CMON is a reputable company despite being run by a scam artist.

Sorta like the Maelstrom/Mierce thing.

Rob Lane is the new David Doust.

Back on topic, TBH I personally don't see the problem with a stretch goal adding a pre-existing product as a freebie onto the starter sets which don't contain pre-existing product.

Yep! Strange how gamers have such short memories. Both situations do share lots of similarities.

 Compel wrote:
I'm contemplating going back to my position of 'what does Watchdog have to say about that?'

Out of interest, what is being defined as "that" in this particular case?

 plastictrees wrote:
It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

Actually, I just got filled in on CMON/New Wave about two days ago, since I was inactive in wargaming for several years when it all happened. I asked in another thread here and got a PM that explained what happened. It was a bit of a surprise, actually. Though I'm not especially fond of apologists of fanbois for any company. It did make me suppose that perhaps that's one reason they've been partnering with people like McVey or Soda Pop who have otherwise good names - to dilute the NWMO thing. It certainly makes me even less likely to back any CMON projects, and finding it out means I won't be buying anything from their store. It does make me wonder why people like McVey have partnered with them, though. Honestly though, I'm still processing to an extent, since I've already gone in for a couple of CMON Kickstarters (expecting SW in a couple of weeks) and bought SDE at retail.

I've just figured out what you mean by it saying which figure it is. I thought the titles in parenthesis underneath their names were the figures' titles/descriptions - not which unit they're attached to. Still, the "free miniature" thing needs to be clarified, I think you'd agree.

But hey, to turn the question - do you think what happened with MG and the results with MM are okay? Like, an alright thing to do? No big deal? Carry on, business as usual?


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RoninXiC wrote:
It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

Anybody who has pledged for a Starter Set in any form or combinatoin will receive one of the following miniatures, for free:

That can legitimately be read in two ways. As such, they need to clarify it on the main page. feth the comments.

grefven wrote:
I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

As has already been stated, it was a goal to tool them in plastic. What is the goal with these existing miniatures, that as far as I can tell are being offered exactly as they are currently for sale, only for less?

Also, pointing out the flaws with CMON doesn't necessarily help Mierce's case. As we were both commenting on KD:M, you might remember I dropped out of that one when I found out CMON was involved... I'm not saying they're like Mierce, but judgedoug did PM me some links yesterday which are pretty crazy which I knew nothing about (showing how the founder got his start, which is somewhat analogous to the founder of Mierce).

In the end, if I'm going to give dollars well in advance via Kickstarter, I basically have to be in love with the company at this point . That is mostly limited to smaller ventures for really exciting projects. CMON selling things they'd make anyway is working well via KS, but also earning them some ire... so they may not be the best company to compare to from a public relations standpoint.

Hmm interesting post from TMP that seemed worth sharing

Manflesh 19 Jan 2013 3:39 a.m. PST

Trouble, is, some of the models on this kickstarter aren't due for release until September. There's no guarantee that this model line will even be owned by Mierce Miniatures after all that time. Maybe another "completely separate legal entity" will have absolutely legally acquired the range by then.

Leigh

 scipio.au wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

Actually, I just got filled in on CMON/New Wave about two days ago, since I was inactive in wargaming for several years when it all happened. I asked in another thread here and got a PM that explained what happened. It was a bit of a surprise, actually. Though I'm not especially fond of apologists of fanbois for any company. It did make me suppose that perhaps that's one reason they've been partnering with people like McVey or Soda Pop who have otherwise good names - to dilute the NWMO thing. It certainly makes me even less likely to back any CMON projects, and finding it out means I won't be buying anything from their store. It does make me wonder why people like McVey have partnered with them, though. Honestly though, I'm still processing to an extent, since I've already gone in for a couple of CMON Kickstarters (expecting SW in a couple of weeks) and bought SDE at retail.

I've just figured out what you mean by it saying which figure it is. I thought the titles in parenthesis underneath their names were the figures' titles/descriptions - not which unit they're attached to. Still, the "free miniature" thing needs to be clarified, I think you'd agree.

But hey, to turn the question - do you think what happened with MG and the results with MM are okay? Like, an alright thing to do? No big deal? Carry on, business as usual?

Re-reading my question to you, it sounds like I'm being a smart ass, but I was genuinely interested.
I was out of the loop for New Wave as well. I asked about it in a CMoN/Confrontation revival thread a couple of years ago and got yelled at for being an apologist so I'm still not entirely clear what happened.
Do I think what happened with MG is ok? No. Not at all. I also don't think that Rob Lane is a serial scam artist. Sometimes things start to fall apart, you try to keep them together, but that just makes the collapse all the more spectacular when it does happen. I guess that is me literally being an apologist now, which isn't my intent. If there was any attempt at all to reach out to the people that lost out to MG, I would be pledging to this with no qualms whatsoever. As it is my pledge is qualm laden and unjustifiable beyond the fact that he hired some of the best sculptors in the world to produce some great models. I don't know if that will be enough to get me to keep my pledge in to the end.

Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

Now I'm curious, can someone PM what's the deal with CMON?

As for things falling apart, you kind of missed the part where MG took money for orders of items that weren't in stock and which they knew weren't going to be come into stock during the month of Oct-Nov. There's a difference between things imploding eventually and just screwing people over. I have somewhat intimate knowledge of things collapsing as it is. Years back when my dad used to manufacture in Malaysia, the factory burned down one day and suddenly, boom, most of the money was gone. He could have declared bankruptcy to avoid a lot of liabilities but he didn't. He borrowed money from most of his friends, paid back people he owed. He even went into debt to make sure his foreign workers could have tickets home instead of just deserting him. Same issue of companies going near bankrupt except one stiffs everybody while the other doesn't.

Mierce is doing a Kickstarter ? people are ' investing?

True, David Doust made some real bad desicions and got the deserved flak for it, but he has worked hard and improved his reputation. He got way mor flak than Mierce/Mealstrom Games has ever gotten.

Today CMON is one of the companies I would rather put my money with than with other companies. Rhey worked hard for it and deserved it.

The New Wave debacle is a thing of several years back.

The MG thing is quite fresh. And Mierce will have to go the same stony road David had to take untill they will be trusted.

What really concerns me ist that Mierce already shows signs of not caring for its distribution partners buy offering discounts for minis they do have sold to them. David back then really tried to act in a better way back then. He not immediatly did start antagonize others.

Sining wrote:
Now I'm curious, can someone PM what's the deal with CMON?

As for things falling apart, you kind of missed the part where MG took money for orders of items that weren't in stock and which they knew weren't going to be come into stock during the month of Oct-Nov. There's a difference between things imploding eventually and just screwing people over. I have somewhat intimate knowledge of things collapsing as it is. Years back when my dad used to manufacture in Malaysia, the factory burned down one day and suddenly, boom, most of the money was gone. He could have declared bankruptcy to avoid a lot of liabilities but he didn't. He borrowed money from most of his friends, paid back people he owed. He even went into debt to make sure his foreign workers could have tickets home instead of just deserting him. Same issue of companies going near bankrupt except one stiffs everybody while the other doesn't.

I didn't miss that. Again, I'm not apologising for anything Rob Lane did. I'm not on his or MGs or Mierce's 'side'. I'm trying to describe a certain level of empathy for being on the precipice of that situation, not any sympathy or understanding for how it was handled.

I think most people's sympathy was burned away by him doing what I described above.

Sining wrote:
I think most people's sympathy was burned away by him doing what I described above.

That....is what I'm saying.

 reds8n wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

Indeed.

People have a right to have raised concerns, such concerns are now here for people to read and make their own decisions.
let's stick to news and info about new releases and pre orders.

IF there winds up being ... complications.. I'm sure there'll be a discussion about it as/when.

Just quoting this.

Yep, it would make sense (and be more on-topic) to talk about the kickstarter- i.e, the fact that they're offering up items as stretch goals that are already for sale (although this has been pretty thoroughly covered by now).

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

This is true, but it's also the easiest part of the "easy fix" - and let's not forget that the figures were all actually paid for, and recently at that. I'm actually not being snarky when I suggest that they should give Mierce Credit to all MG customers who lost out for the amount they lost. If they did so it would make a huge difference in changing people's opinions to consider them more trustworthy. Note that this isn't me "fishing for some freebies" (of things I, you know, paid for) - I got most of my money refunded, and only lost out for a relatively small amount that I'd missed with their constant merging and splitting of orders. Since RobLaneCo is now in the position of asking people to trust them enough to send them money with a new business and Kickstarter, people have to be able to, you know, trust them. Things like that TMP post would make me a little skittish, even though it's just a random post on the internet, it's still something to consider.

With the whole thing about existing product up on a Kickstarter for cheap, I can see why retailers would be pissed off, but a lot of customers simply aren't aware of this sort of thing, and as I said in another thread (Red Box?) that it's basically just the same as a one-off discount sale (with months to wait for your toys) - so I think retailer tears for this sort of thing are a little over-dramatic (excepting perhaps online-only stores). The other thing is that the existing figures here are being used as the core of new units - expanded around one or two existing models - and as paid add-ons and bonuses. Not that different to the Mongoose/Dredd kickstarter from a few months ago.


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 RiTides wrote:
Yep, it would make sense (and be more on-topic) to talk about the kickstarter- i.e, the fact that they're offering up items as stretch goals that are already for sale (although this has been pretty thoroughly covered by now).

Let's be realistic though - all Kickstarter threads talk in circles, have both positive and negative discussion and don't need mods to handhold that discussion when it's being civil. I'd hate to see this thread become over-moderated compared to other Kickstarter threads simply because we have a few people here are over-sensitive and don't want anything slightly negative spoken about Lane. Everyone here is being civil. There's far harsher things being said in the GoA thread right now about Rick Priestly - of all people.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

That's an interesting one, though: I've gotten a shipping notification for such a package from mierce nov. 27th, when it still wasn't there jan 8th I was told to wait until the 15th (really? 28days etc I know but even with the holidays that seems like a stretch...), when I emailed the 15th I was told the mold for one of those models was just being remade after they broke the previous one - that wasn't something to get all too confident about... okay, I've since gotten a shipping confirmation on that replacement package but that's just an email with no tracking... I'm kinda nervous on this one TBH...

Last post about it for the people who were curious:

New Wave Mail Order was run by David Doust. From 2000-2004 New Wave would offer things for sale that weren't in stock, overcharge credit cards, never ship product, and constantly lie about it (to the tune of having lied about someone dying three times in a year to delay shipping product). The business had literally hundreds of BBB complaints against them. Eventually Doust was investigated by the Georgia State Attorney, and eventually some customers got some money back. It was incredibly bad during the litigation as Doust would actually misquote or edit people's emails and posts on forums to sound like threats; the Editor of The Miniatures Page had to basically provide original unedited entries during litigation. In the end, hundreds of gamers lost money to New Wave and Doust. While this was going on, Doust funnelled the money into creating CMON. Any mention of New Wave or moneys owed were summarily deleted from CMON forums and for a period links to The Miniatures Page's several threads on New Wave were automatically blocked and users attempting to post about it were banned. CMON was founded on Doust scamming wargamers. Now that it's 8 years after that, many have forgotten or don't know about it, but many still refuse to do any business with CMON because they lost money to New Wave. Many also believe New Wave helped to destroy I-Kore (which became Urban Mammoth) as they were also the distributor for their products, making it nearly impossible for Void to purchases in some areas. Most of this is in the public record and there's overwhelming evidence still available on TMP, warseer, rpg.net, and many other forums. I don't believe Doust has ever apologized or tried to rectify in any way for the hundreds if not thousands of people that were scammed by him. PM me and I can send several links containing bunches of info that I sent to RITides when he asked me.

End of the offtopic-ness.

 judgedoug wrote:
Last post about it for the people who were curious:

New Wave Mail Order was run by David Doust. From 2000-2004 New Wave would offer things for sale that weren't in stock, overcharge credit cards, never ship product, and constantly lie about it (to the tune of having lied about someone dying three times in a year to delay shipping product). The business had literally hundreds of BBB complaints against them. Eventually Doust was investigated by the Georgia State Attorney, and eventually some customers got some money back. It was incredibly bad during the litigation as Doust would actually misquote or edit people's emails and posts on forums to sound like threats; the Editor of The Miniatures Page had to basically provide original unedited entries during litigation. In the end, hundreds of gamers lost money to New Wave and Doust. While this was going on, Doust funnelled the money into creating CMON. Any mention of New Wave or moneys owed were summarily deleted from CMON forums and for a period links to The Miniatures Page's several threads on New Wave were automatically blocked and users attempting to post about it were banned. CMON was founded on Doust scamming wargamers. Now that it's 8 years after that, many have forgotten or don't know about it, but many still refuse to do any business with CMON because they lost money to New Wave. Many also believe New Wave helped to destroy I-Kore (which became Urban Mammoth) as they were also the distributor for their products, making it nearly impossible for Void to purchases in some areas. Most of this is in the public record and there's overwhelming evidence still available on TMP, warseer, rpg.net, and many other forums. I don't believe Doust has ever apologized or tried to rectify in any way for the hundreds if not thousands of people that were scammed by him. PM me and I can send several links containing bunches of info that I sent to RITides when he asked me.

End of the offtopic-ness.

Not too offtopic I think. The whole Maelstrom debacle seems to have some parallels to this New Wave story. Offering stock they knew they wouldn't get, never shipping orders, making constant excuses ("We are awaiting stock and your order will go out this friday"), funding a new company with the money that was supposed to buy stock for the main company (banelegions was funded as MG was in trouble). - The similarities do stack up. Let's hope this years kickstarter is not last years warehouse move...

I'm really hoping that this kickstarter will deliver for all the guys who are pledging. I for one will not put any money in this, as I was one of the guys burned by MG and also, I spent my hobby budget this year already in the Kingdom Death: Monster kickstarter ;-).

Cheers!

You know what else this reminds me of? Gaspowered Games kickstarter.
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/21971-lacking-confidence-in-wildman-kickstarter-gas-powered-games-hit-with-substantial-layoffs/
Both companies seem to need funding to continue and they're doing it via KS

To all those still complaining about Mr. Lane's past, would it be so difficult for you to take your grief elsewhere, as has been asked multiple times already by the board staff? I mean it's not like anyone on here is still unaware by now what the history behind Mierce is...

(And seriously, asking for MM to compensate clients for missing items on other lines is ridiculous. It's like asking Relic, assuming they purchase the rights to the DoW/Space Marine lines from about-to-die-THQ, to then patch any remaining bugs in Saint's Row 3 because "they owe it to the gamers who got robbed by THQ"...)

I have purchased a few BaneL miniatures from MG before the whole fiasco (the months-long sale seemed fishy, glad I didn't hop on) and was always looking forward to further releases and still am, and this thread was until recently one of those I'd be keeping a close eye on here on Dakka. However most of the time when it gets bumped up now is because of the same old arguments being flung around once again.

It's a dead fish, let it rest, please.

As for the KS, there are quite a few beautiful units being offered there, but not only are there not a single one I would have any use for beyond as display pieces, I've been strapped for cash over the past few months because of my girlfriend's recent health problems, so won't participate on this one. Had I had any interest in doing so I would definitely have been hesitant, considering the company management's past, and I am therefore glad I won't have to weight that decision.

Player not found wrote:
(And seriously, asking for MM to compensate clients for missing items on other lines is ridiculous. It's like asking Relic, assuming they purchase the rights to the DoW/Space Marine lines from about-to-die-THQ, to then patch any remaining bugs in Saint's Row 3 because "they owe it to the gamers who got robbed by THQ"...)

Your comparison is as tedious as it is misguided. We're talking about real debts and lost money here, not some kind of moral obligation. Kindly desist