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2020/09/04 13:52:15
Subject: Re:Will the Land Raider finally be good this edition?
*sigh* That's why you don't trust Battlescribe for rules. I love it and use it as well but it's often wrong. If you play fw units you should have the Index.
But you still haven't explained how you think the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic, and haven't explained how something appropriately priced can be OP (yes, I read your reasoning above, but it doesn't pan out).
And as for the fw Land Raiders vs codex Land Raiders both of the fw units have a transport capacity of six standard power armoured units. That means no full squads of terminators, a Land Raider's preferred payload. On top of the increased prices.
Terms dont need transport - they deep strike and the LR is actually a very bad transport. This is a game of target priority. If Your strongest unit is also the unit I benefit most from killing because it immobilizes another powerful unit it just puts a target on your head and gives more value to your best units being targeted. They only way that could work if your LR had durability with a good PPW. LR PWW is one of the worst in the codex and no freaking invune save ether. To add insult to injury when the unit dies you lose whole models on a roll of a 1 when the transport dies. Again. It doesn't work.
I fully agree that Land Raiders are overpriced. I'll not go into why it could be a good idea to use one to transport terminators, as that was discussed up thread. But the very existence of the fw Land Raiders doesn't hurt codex Land Raiders, gw's rules for them does that. Same for dreadnoughts. But you still haven't explained why you think that the Hellforged Contemptor is better than the relic contemptor. Let's hear your reasoning.
Hint: theres no reasoning, he probably still thinks that triple dread The purge list is what is top tier for CSM, and hes not realising that people were using deredeos and levis before getting to contemptors in that list anyway
I didn't state the the hellforged levi is better than the loyalist levi. I'd take a loyalist relic over it for multiple reasons. #1 being I am not a heretic. #2 I prefer shooting over melee. #3 when I feel like being a heretic I play with daemon engines. The loyalist 2x storm cannon levi is the better of the 2 undeniably. I used to play with it every game back with gman rerolling everything and 40 intercessors. That was fun but levi has been retired now. I like actually having friends. Not sure how this devolved into a debate over space marines being OP or not. My complaint was about FWLR being way better than codex LR by a large margin. I believe all LR should have 4++ save. I think it would fix them more or less. FWLR has 4++ and nobody cares...Standard LR has a 4++ and people lose their minds...
There's no problem with a standard Land Raider having a 4++ as long as there's a lore reason for it to have one and you pay the points to get it. A 4++ is a pretty big buff, how much would it be worth to you?
And no, you didn't say that the hellforged leviathan was better than the relic leviathan, you said:
Xenomancers wrote:When it comes to contemptors though the choas version is probably better than the loyalist IMO (both are OP though).
So how is the Hellforged Contemptor better than the Relic Contemptor?
The 2x butcher cannon is just great? Vs a lot of unit profiles it ends up being better than quad las contetmptor. It can regain wounds from getting kills. True no 6+ FNP since it will primarily be killing infantry units with t4 it will probably get more value out of the 5+ on kill for heals. It just has the best all arounder weapon which is what you want for your heavy hitters. The relic contemptor mortis does have 12 wounds though which is pretty fantastic. It does cost slightly more though with quad las. Again I said "probably" as in an all arounder it's better IMO. Just an opinion and not a very important one. Just - I think we can agree these dreads loyalist and choas are OP compared to the codex units.
Ok, so you believe that the Hellforged Contemptor is superior to the relic contemptor because you seem to erroneously believe that it can regain wounds on a 5+ for any successful kill, instead of kills made in melee which is how it actually works, and because butcher cannons are better than twin auto cannons, which they are. That's why they cost more, which is what we call balance. But if you still believe that the ability to take butcher cannons makes the Hellforged Contemptor better than the relic contemptor even though the relic is considerably more durable for the same price, fine, that's your opinion.
Or, alternately, all of their units are a tax. I love the "A little of everything" lists. Even with Min Size units SM have a hard to impossible time taking a little of everything. 20-30 (4x5 or 3x10 depending on edition - This edition might be 4x5 or more as I'm not sure 20 ObSec models is enough while last edition I was doing 3x10 - Intercessors, Infiltrators, Sniper Scouts) troops of two or more different kinds, some jump dudes, some close combat, some light to medium vehicles, some medium to a heavy vehicle, some long range zap, a little beatstick, a little psychic, etc. I even like that I can't fit it all in one list, and that I can fit it in a hundred different lists in a hundred different ways. But in some ways the base price of SM is its own tax, you have to skimp somewhere.
No, having access to so many good units that it's hard to decide which you want to include in a list isn't a "tax". A "tax unit" is one you must take even though you'd much rather take something else.
