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I may be thinking of Mortgaged Properties specifically?

Or I’m just entirely wrong!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I may be thinking of Mortgaged Properties specifically?

Or I’m just entirely wrong!

You are wrong haha but don’t worry about it. You wouldn’t be able to buy back your own mortgaged property simply because you wouldn’t be able to secure a new mortgage from any reputable lender.

I’d be happy to go into more detail about the different types of formal insolvency and associated rules but would be worried it’d be deleted as off topic haha.

Probably best to save it until we know more details as right now we are doing a fair bit of guessing as to what they might be or might not be doing.

I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).

So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.

That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.

At least it means the molds will likely be sold to someone who might make and deliver models.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
At least it means the molds will likely be sold to someone who might make and deliver models.

We can only hope. It would be nice to have access to all those sculpts without gambling on them showing up.

Depends - sometimes going into liquidation is just how assets end up being held by a firm from well outside of the industry or being left in limbo or just disposed of because they didn't sell etc.... If the moulds are limped in with a company site a firm might bid on the lot just to get the building cheap and then dump the other assets in a skip.

And that's before you get to the issue of collections being split up between multiple bidders or only one part getting bid on and another ignored.

Well, today I learned the english term for phoenixing, which is the standard method of doing business in my country, with one innovation: at the end of it all you pay a literal hobo 50 bucks to buy your debt-ridden company for 1€, they have no assets to seize, job's a good 'un, debtors are screwed, you open the same company under a new name.

Did Prodos do something similar with Archon when they moved from the UK back to Poland and the previous owners's dad took control of the new company on paper? Or was that just an asset transfer and not a full on liquidation? I'm genuinely asking as I don't remember the details. I'd be surprised if the same people who built up the company and then dug it into the ground didn't end up with control yet again.

 Jadenim wrote:
I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).

So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.

That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.

One point to clarify: my original company was solvent and profitable (very profitable; it’s why we got bought), so this isn’t restricted to companies in trouble, it’s a general tool that is used to limit the liabilities of the buyer.

 Jadenim wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
I’m not in the financial industry, but I have a small personal experience of this sort of “phoenixing” thing; when my first employer was bought out all of the employees had to formally transfer to a new holding company before joining the new organisation, as the buyer wanted the people and assets, but not any of the accrued liabilities from the original company (which was then wound up I believe).

So for those not from the UK, this sort of thing sounds incredibly dodgy, but is fairly normal business practice.

That is not intended to make any kind of comment on the state of Hasslefree, just to add my voice to those above and urge a measure of restraint, as this sort of thing can seem more malicious than it is.

One point to clarify: my original company was solvent and profitable (very profitable; it’s why we got bought), so this isn’t restricted to companies in trouble, it’s a general tool that is used to limit the liabilities of the buyer.

Not sure that quite adds up (having been through various similar processes myself). If the prior owners sold a solvent company without transferring its liabilities to the new owners, they'd still be liable for everything, and receipts from the sale of the business would be expected to cover that. I think a few separate circumstances and the means of dealing with them might be getting conflated here. This topic may be relevant, since there may be forum members who have outstanding orders or are owed money – and there's obviously a couple of posters with real expertise in the matter – but those of us with more limited experience should probably be careful about clouding that with anecdote.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Moral of the story right now? Don’t order from Hasslefree. They seem exceptionally and staggeringly dodgy.

I wouldn't put any of this on the Whites (original company founders, with Kev as the main sculptor), but on Artemis Black.

Been out of the loop a bit so never realised Hasslefree having had trouble delivering on a Kickstarter.

Have spent some time with Mr White can say he doesn't seem at all like the kind of person who would willingly bring a bad name to his business. Mrs White seems like a very passionate woman with her beliefs so again, don't believe for a second they set out to have this happen.

And to kinda throw a little sympathy towards them, ran a few kickstarters myself. One of them ended up costing me somewhat more than expected (forgot to carry the one from memory, something like that) which delayed delivery of all the models for a few months until I'd managed to scrape the money together through some extra grifting. And perhaps a little help from good old dad at the time...

Anyway, what was I saying? They're good people, and I'm sure they'll make good as and when they're able to.

Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.

Just to remind peeps, Kev works for GW's Specialist Games division these days, that's why he's no longer involved.

 ingtaer wrote:
Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.

Got a link to this stream of bloodbowl?

 warboss wrote:
Did Prodos do something similar with Archon when they moved from the UK back to Poland and the previous owners's dad took control of the new company on paper? Or was that just an asset transfer and not a full on liquidation? I'm genuinely asking as I don't remember the details. I'd be surprised if the same people who built up the company and then dug it into the ground didn't end up with control yet again.

IIRC, Archon was a spinoff of Prodos for auto parts from a molding technology that allowed undercuts. Prodos got into deep doodoo with the Aliens vs. Predator KS, plagiarism of Rum and Bones for their LOAD game, threatening legal action against BoardGameGeek, crappy treatment of clients, etc. etc.

I did my part sparking this whole Archon / Prodos link with some research that linked Archon to a failed Demigods KS, though that link wasn't correct but forced Prodos to reveal that it was Archon, even though Archon claimed they couldn't reveal themselves because they signed an NDA.. Or... something. Digging around by other Dakkans (?) showed that both Prodos and Archon were owned by Jared's relatives, and both had the same staff, with everything but the liabilities magically owned by the new company.

I didn't get the impression it was a full-on liquidation or bankruptcy. More like avoiding liabilities from the Aliens vs. Predator fiasco, in which Paramount, the IP holder, took forever to approve anything (didn't help that the suits kept changing) causing delays resulting in loss of $$$. Archon finally did give out store credit to AvP backers who didn't get stuff.

Fast forwarding to Dungeons and Lasers. I don't know how or when they wised up and learned to act like a professional business, but I think they dropped all the resin and that new molding technology, and converted to in-house plastic miniatures. Although they ripped off another company's idea of clothed animal companions with D&L I, I'd say they mostly did the straight andnarrow with generic fantasy and sf with D&L II. They've recently done IP's (eg. He-Man, Pathfinder) and partnerships (eg. Army Painter, Mantic) and even returned to IP-gaming (Heroes of Might and Magic III?).

Though I'd agree that this was pretty common business practices.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1908423/prodos-archon-companies-house

@ced1106: I appreciate the recap. I followed the AVP drama as the first and only film is a guilty pleasure of mine but not the rest. I'm definitely glad for the community that they've cleaned up their act in the years since and have, like CMON until recently after their New Wave implosion, done good by the community. While I hope that something similar will happen here for the backers of the KS, I really doubt it frankly.

GrimPunk wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Kev has no part of the business now and Sally unfortunately has very little due to ill health. The complete cluster of a situation the company is in now rest solely on Dameon, who would rather live stream himself playing games and begging for money than he would do the job he is paid for and fulfil his obligations.

Got a link to this stream of bloodbowl?

https://www.twitch.tv/theartemisblack

As a backer my feeling wasn't that they "had trouble" fulfilling. We were promised a pledge manager 3+ years ago and it never happened.

We were told models were being cast (how when you don't have a pledge manager and done know what was ordered?) but it's now more than 6 months since the last aenimic update.

The Robotech/Palladium KS for example eventually delivered Wave 1, but this had produced nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's like no one tried.

It's interesting that compulsory strike-off was attempted and suspended before, in 2021, 2019 and 2018.

I'm guessing it's linked to not filing accounts, as they seem pretty sparse (with the last one in 2023).

They also got dissolved as "Hasslefree Miniatures" in 2012: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07286267/filing-history

Are they really just terrible at handling the paperwork? I know that's not really the forte of garden shed miniature companies, but still. You'd think after the first threat of strike off would encourage them to get an accountant.


It's a shame because Kev & Sally seemed like great folk. Maybe they should have just sold it off to someone else years ago instead of trying to make it work.

I think that Fourground did the Pheonixing thing too by selling assets to a family member.
I think they also had a KS that did not complete.

 manic _miner wrote:
I think that Fourground did the Pheonixing thing too by selling assets to a family member.
I think they also had a KS that did not complete.

Ya, a few years before they finally folded 4 ground was sold to a company owned partially by some of the 4ground people that made souvenirs for UK historical sites. Brexit hurt the parent company a few years later causing 4ground to fold. Their KS was in limbo for years likely due to them using those funds to just keep the base business running hoping to recover with sales.

I know someone bought some of the building files and sells them under a different name.

edit: here's a thread on that. https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=19087.0

and this reddit post which covers it way better https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/vcu34h/tabletop_wargaming_4ground_fades_into_the/ including that 4ground was part of Tymeagain, broke off, and reabsorbed.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 manic _miner wrote:
I think that Fourground did the Pheonixing thing too by selling assets to a family member.
I think they also had a KS that did not complete.

Ya, a few years before they finally folded 4 ground was sold to a company owned partially by some of the 4ground people that made souvenirs for UK historical sites. Brexit hurt the parent company a few years later causing 4ground to fold. Their KS was in limbo for years likely due to them using those funds to just keep the base business running hoping to recover with sales.

I know someone bought some of the building files and sells them under a different name.

edit: here's a thread on that. https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=19087.0

and this reddit post which covers it way better https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/vcu34h/tabletop_wargaming_4ground_fades_into_the/ including that 4ground was part of Tymeagain, broke off, and reabsorbed.

It wasn't Brexit that did in Tymeagain to my knowledge, but COVID. If the majority of sales are from children visiting castles and suddenly no one does for months, it hits the bottom line.

My undertanding is that Brexit massivly jumped the cost of MDF and the other materials both companies were using as well as stopped travel from the EU lowering sales for TY. It wasn't the cause of TY closing, as COVID did eventually do that, but killed 4grounds sales as they increased their already expensive prices by quite a bit and putting them into debt by quite a bit.

Brexit must have really hurt EU sales too, which is a big market for a gaming company.